Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

The devs will end up spending the entire dev cycle keeping the players who log in only on tuesdays and thursdays happy instead of adding to the open world.

3 - 5 instanced encounters would only require one day a week, not two.

That small a number of encounters will not impact the stated vision of the game - this is even more true if the entrance to those instances is at the bottom of a raid dungeon that players will need to fight down to.

I would agree that it would be a bad idea if we were talking about instanced dungeons, but I am only talking about single encounters. However, it is also worth pointing out that this number fits in to the 20% instanced content that Intrepid are aiming for.

Also, instanced raid encounters take up less development resources than open world raid encounters. This is not a great argument.

Nothings a great argument to you @Noaani. The only thing you will accept is as many instances as you can get your hands on and death to the open world. I hope you have a good time in Ashes.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

Nothings a great argument to you Noaani. The only thing you will accept is as many instances as you can get your hands on and death to the open world. I hope you have a good time in Ashes.

No, it is usually only when people try and argue points they know nothing about that are not great arguments.

If you are of the opinion that nothing is a great argument to me, then maybe you should only attempt to argue things you know about.

And I have said many times, I want 3 - 5 instanced encounters.

I don't want more than that, and it is childish of you to suggest otherwise.

Bricktop

Noaani wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Nothings a great argument to you Noaani. The only thing you will accept is as many instances as you can get your hands on and death to the open world. I hope you have a good time in Ashes.

No, it is usually only when people try and argue points they know nothing about that are not great arguments.

If you are of the opinion that nothing is a great argument to me, then maybe you should only attempt to argue things you know about.

And I have said many times, I want 3 - 5 instanced encounters.

I don't want more than that, and it is childish of you to suggest otherwise.

I'm not gonna argue with someone who conveniently ignores huge portions of whatever you say to push what is very clearly an agenda. Good luck with this crusade you lead to make the open world less interesting.

Noaani

Bricktop wrote: »

I'm not gonna argue with someone who conveniently ignores huge portions of whatever you say to push what is very clearly an agenda. Good luck with this crusade you lead to make the open world less interesting.

You say agenda like it is something to be hidden.

My agenda is that I am arguing for Intrepid to include a small amount of instanced raid content in to the game.

Your agenda is to argue against that.

I'm not sure why people having an agenda is suddenly something you care about.

Also, adding instanced encounters won't make the open world less interesting - but this is just more of your lack of understanding of what is being asked for.

Vhaeyne

As much as I would like to be a one MMO Andy. The more I think about it, and lurk on this thread. The more I am convinced that AoC just will not have interesting raid bosses. It just don't seem possible for the bosses to be anything more than giant pinatas with large health pools and a simple mechanic or two.

That's fine, the real fun in AoC is going to be the open world PvP and territory control of the pinatas. Raid bosses seem like they are going to be a small side activity. With how streamlined WOW/FFXIV are currently. It takes 15$, and month and like 2-3 hours a week for me to keep up with the hardcore raiding in those games outside of patch week. I am just going to play AoC and w/e game is good at the moment.

Currently I play FFXIV like 2-3 hours a week. If I wanted to prog ultimate I could increase that, but right now no one I know wants to invest the serious amount of time and energy learning a fights like that is. If AoC was out right now, I don't think I would be left behind too much by spending 2-3 hours a week on another game.

Just like I don't expect AoC to have mythic/savage tier bosses. I don't expect WOW/FFXIV to have meaningful open world PvP. You just cant get everything from every game. Again I think that is fine. AoC does not have to be the best at every sub category in a MMO. It just has to be the best at enough things to make it worth playing long term.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

As much as I would like to be a one MMO Andy. The more I think about it, and lurk on this thread. The more I am convinced that AoC just will not have interesting raid bosses. It just don't seem possible for the bosses to be anything more than giant pinatas with large health pools and a simple mechanic or two.

You are completely right there - this is all open world encounters will ever amount to.

As I've said in this thread, these encounters can be enjoyable still. They are great catalysts for PvP.

Here's my theory.

At best, people wanting to raid will perhaps play Ashes a bit, and then log over to another game to raid.

This is taking away from Ashes in literally every single way.

If Ashes adds some instanced encounters to the game, then those players would then be able to raid in Ashes. This means more players in the game, for longer. If those instances are at the end of open dungeons, that means those people are still spending most of their time in the open world, enhancing the PvP aspects of the game.

Then those people zone in to the instance, which for the game is no different to logging out to play a different game.

Then after killing the encounter, they have to zone back in to the open dungeon, and work their way back home.

So, the addition of those instances keeps people in the game rather than going to another game. The fact that they are in the game and fighting to a specific location means they are adding to the PvP aspect of Ashes.

I'm still unsure how this is a loss to anyone in the game.

Hurf Derfman

Bricktop wrote: »

Kneczhevo wrote: »

@Bricktop

Not knocking you, friend. But Intrepid is making a PvX Sandbox MMORPG.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but once you understand the concept, it will be clear. Again, I know this might be confusing and foreign (a lot of AoC is.), just get your head out of the box, and you will see the light. 😁

I like you Knec, you make some solid posts around these forums that I've seen so far. I have played this exact type of game before in the form of Lineage 2 and Archeage and I feel very aware how the meta game will play out.

The game is indeed PvX. PvX in that all systems are intertwined and dependent on 1 another. PvP, PvE, and crafting. You need to be able to do all of those things to find success in Ashes of Creation. To secure open world bosses you will need to be able to PvP other groups in order to secure the boss and make it safe for your group to kill. After you secure the area and kill the boss (PvE) it will drop crafting recipes and materials. You will need to utilize high level crafters to make the best gear in the game and reach an end game state. You can very easily see how it is PvX and all the systems are dependent on one another.

You can apply this to pretty much any part of the game. Your guild will (possibly) fight for control of an open world dungeon entrance. Once you kill all the opposing guild members inside who you are at war with, your group starts to grind mobs inside the dungeon trying to get a recipe to drop or something along those lines. Your group will have to defend that grind spot and dungeon from other groups. You are PvPing and PvEing during this.

I promise you this is very much what the devs meant when they said PvX. I agree it is confusing and foreign to a lot of people. I'm very confident you will understand though.

In Black Desert Online you could flag at will on anyone without penalties. This was a common tactic used to protect farming lanes.

I being a well geared Ninja would do as I pleased and could solo most 2v1 encounters and run and hide against anything too nasty.

That being said;

You could summon minor world bosses with a scroll, and pick up groups would form to maximize scroll efficiency, granted it's been almost about 2 years since I played BDO, but I never saw PVP break out in these areas in the two and a half years I played the game.

Well that's not entirely true, it happened a couple of times and the aggressors got wrecked.

🤷™️

Tragnar

Once again I feel the need to post this quote from Steven:

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[9] – Steven Sharif

If the in-depth raiding is indeed to have multiple stages and be extremely difficult then I fail to see how those bosses can be in any way killable with PvP happening in the area at the same time. That is encouraged by the fact that only small percentile of players are actually capable to kill those raids.

By allowing PvP to happen without any restriction on any amount of pulls then you basically are asking for top end guilds be over cap sized guilds. For example the top-end guild is named Immortals, then you will for sure see Immortals II, Immortals III, Immortals IV with outside the game tools to cooperate giant zerg controls to protect the encounters. Which is a nightmare to cooperate - not to say that I very doubt that the rewards from the raids are going to include players that are on PvP duty.

I have nothing against giant public zerg loot boxes, but those are not difficult and definitely there is no skill required to kill the encounter, but to win the PvP to keep the loot

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Once again I feel the need to post this quote from Steven:

There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel.[9] – Steven Sharif

If the in-depth raiding is indeed to have multiple stages and be extremely difficult then I fail to see how those bosses can be in any way killable with PvP happening in the area at the same time. That is encouraged by the fact that only small percentile of players are actually capable to kill those raids.

By allowing PvP to happen without any restriction on any amount of pulls then you basically are asking for top end guilds be over cap sized guilds. For example the top-end guild is named Immortals, then you will for sure see Immortals II, Immortals III, Immortals IV with outside the game tools to cooperate giant zerg controls to protect the encounters. Which is a nightmare to cooperate - not to say that I very doubt that the rewards from the raids are going to include players that are on PvP duty.

I have nothing against giant public zerg loot boxes, but those are not difficult and definitely there is no skill required to kill the encounter, but to win the PvP to keep the loot

That comment from Steven is what convinced me to back this game.

The notion that people can read that and not assume the game will have at least some instanced top end PvE encounters is beyond me.

Tragnar

Also I literally don't understand that the instanced PvE cannot be limited to have only one active instance at a time. This keeps the scarcity of it (to be 1 on server) and creates another bottleneck - not to say the the top-end is exclusionary enough as it is.

Currently in the latest raid in WoW the last boss has been on the hardest difficulty only ~1640 times (1240 horde, 400alliance) which includes all actual boosted players that payed with gold for that kill (to get achievements, mounts from the whole raid).

So if you go even with the minimum of projected active players (based on scanning tools to find active characters) being above few million then you get only around ~0.05% of the population to participate in killing the hardest boss (currently).

And that is raiding with 20 people, which is inherently much easier than raiding with 40 people.

If anyone can fill in statistics of top-end kills from final fantasy I'd be glad.

Noaani

Tragnar wrote: »

Also I literally don't understand that the instanced PvE cannot be limited to have only one active instance at a time. This keeps the scarcity of it (to be 1 on server) and creates another bottleneck - not to say the the top-end is exclusionary enough as it is.

One at a time could be an interesting mechanic.

I wouldn't be that keen on one instance every day or anything like that, but one at a time could make for interesting content.

I'm sure there are people out there that will say something along the lines of "the only interesting content is if you can attack people while they are taking on PvE encounters", which is basically all the argument against a limited number of instances comes down to (an argument on par with "but I want to attack the player that is 45 levels below me" in terms of dickishness). However, these people need to understand that not all competitive content needs to be about who can kill the other side the best.

Content that only rewards the guild that is fastest with PvE content is a fantastic form of competition, and I can see the same of racing to an instance entrance the fastest - especially if you needed a specific number of players in your raid to open the instance up.

Vhaeyne

Tragnar wrote: »

If anyone can fill in statistics of top-end kills from final fantasy I'd be glad.

The best I could find on FFLogs was that there are 567 total Parses for Summoner on TEA "The Epic of Alexander"
Currently. I would imagine that quite a bit of that number is the same people trying to get better parses or re-clearing. I don't know where you would find % of population that has cleared it. I know from being a member of the FFXIV community myself that the population is mostly a bunch of WEEBs who will report you are the first sign of criticism. The % of people who do savage and Ultimate prog is very low. As a pugger I see a lot of the same people. I would expect that the number of groups that has finished TEA is lower than that 567.

Also I would love to be wrong about AoC when it comes to good raids. I want nothing more than for AoC to succeed in every feature it has. I was just saying early that I don't expect good raid bosses. Especially in open world. If AoC does have some good instanced raid bosses that would be awesome.

I would be worried that the gear in AoC would not be compatible with hard fights. What I mean is that in Wow/FFXIV the dev team has very tight control over what gear a party has going into an encounter. This is a major factor in what makes the encounter hard. You often times just barley have the gear to get the boss downed with seconds between success and enrage. Open world MMOs tend to not control gear so granularity. Anyone who has raided a tier knows the feeling of being able to skip mechanics after a few weeks into a patch once the raid gets geared. I could see AoC having a problem with people being over geared the first time they see a boss. Not the end of the world just a worry.

Tragnar

Well if raids are going to be about speedrunning then I think we are once again at easy content - the best example of that content I can give you is currently ongoing Classic WoW - on one side it is amazing to see raids being pushed to be fully cleared of bosses under 20minutes when the average guild it takes at least 2hours.

It creates totally different dynamic in raiding that is purely thanks to 3rd party leaderboards (warcraftlogs.com). This is however possible literally because over 90% of the populace is fully capable to clear that content

Vhaeyne

Now is a good time to get the domain "aoclogs.com". I know the Devs don't want parsers, but if they leave any cracks in the system. The there will be parsers...

Gimlog

Everything is subject to change but if I remember correctly there will be 80% open world dungeons and 20% of instances, the most challenging one will be instances.
They will test AI during horde mod but they are currently planning to test for raid a scaling mechanism where difficulty and rewards scale with how fast you killed the previous boss .

And they said that there will be a tag system where the first group need 40% while the second one need 60% to get the loot.
But nothing has been said for more than 2 groups and nothing about what happens if the second group kill the first one while they have already done 40% ...
Beta testers will need to test it.

Tyrantor

@Noaani I see you purposely ignored my proposal I made to you and the other epic npc encounter blowhards. I take it that by denial of response you and the rest of the lackies here simply want safe farming as has been pointed out and it has nothing to do with "top tier guild PvE content" and more to do with "Top tier loot content away from PvP".

Any argument the three of you make going forward is here on out pure bullshit, half truths and/or lies to push a safe PvE agenda.

Mojottv

Tyrantor wrote: »

@Noaani I see you purposely ignored my proposal I made to you and the other epic npc encounter blowhards. I take it that by denial of response you and the rest of the lackies here simply want safe farming as has been pointed out and it has nothing to do with "top tier guild PvE content" and more to do with "Top tier loot content away from PvP".

Any argument the three of you make going forward is here on out pure bullshit, half truths and/or lies to push a safe PvE agenda.

HOW DARE YOU! WHAT DO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND?! ALL they want is to have fun and experience this game and all of its content, without other people ruining their fun. These poor guys just want to have fun...ideally by getting best gear and everything and then to be able to kill everyone else, all those scum other players...

Warth

Tragnar wrote: »

Currently in the latest raid in WoW the last boss has been on the hardest difficulty only ~1640 times (1240 horde, 400alliance) which includes all actual boosted players that payed with gold for that kill (to get achievements, mounts from the whole raid).

Now sure how you got the ~1640 Number.
However, Mythic N'zoth was killed by about 2350 Guilds, which equals 8.9% of the Players that attempted the Raid in a Mythic/Heroic Setting. 38.7% killed the first boss in the Mythic Raid. (74% and 61% for the Heroic versions).

Tragnar wrote: »

So if you go even with the minimum of projected active players (based on scanning tools to find active characters) being above few million then you get only around ~0.05% of the population to participate in killing the hardest boss (currently).

I'm not sure about the accuracy of this number. I didn't look into closely enough to support or disprove that. So let's just roll with it.

It kinda proofs a point. Why should Intrepid waste valuable resources pre-release for content, only a fraction of the player base even cares about/attempts, especially when it also goes against their core game design philosophy?

Seems like that would be a very poor way to spend your resources.

Tragnar

Warth wrote: »

Now sure how you got the ~1640 Number.
However, Mythic N'zoth was killed by about 2350 Guilds, which equals 8.9% of the Players that attempted the Raid in a Mythic/Heroic Setting. 38.7% killed the first boss in the Mythic Raid. (74% and 61% for the Heroic versions).

I took these number 2-3 months after the release of the raid. Right now the raid is almost 8months old and the power curve from other places has literally skyrocketted once again and as I said before, there are literally every week gold carries for mounts and achievements. Also the gap of difficulty between heroic and mythic is pretty extreme.

As to show how @Tyrantor literally still doesnt understand the point we are making. So let me reiterate for hopefully another chance for him to understand the meaning behind these words.

If you allow PvP to happen and at the same time you want to keep this quote from Steven true:

It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content..

then you just need prevent the presence of more than 40 people, because if you don't then it is literally impossible to create challenging encounter that only "single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content".

I understand guys that you come from PvP-centric open world games, but you should wake up, because PvE-centric open world games are possible and Ashes wants to be a blend of the two to allow the existence of both. I wouldn't be surprised if you ragequit the game after finding out that you are punished for unanswered PvP via corruption system.

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

I understand guys that you come from PvP-centric open world games, but you should wake up, because PvE-centric open world games are possible and Ashes wants to be a blend of the two to allow the existence of both. I wouldn't be surprised if you ragequit the game after finding out that you are punished for unanswered PvP via corruption system.

Hahaha A PvE centric game isn't what they are making @Tragnar. That's why the world changes on node sieges and not killing dragons. Everybody in this thread who PvPs understands how the corruption system works, half of us already played it in L2. I can assure you the only people who are gonna be ragequitting are PvE players (WoW raiders let's be honest) who are disappointed by the lack of instancing. Some of them have already been threatening to quit in this thread and the other one if they don't get their way and they slowly realize how much PvP is actually in the game. I would much rather see PvE players quit than the game get New Worlded.

Child Item