Dev Discussion #22 - Immersion

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Comments

  • Thank you all SO MUCH for chiming in with your detailed thoughts and images on immersion, including what brings you into a game and breaks you out of the zone! <3 I'm going ahead and wrapping up a compilation of your notes for our team now, but please feel free to keep chiming in with additional thoughts as you have them!

    We'll see ya for our next Dev Discussion on housing and decor tools!
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  • edited September 17
    Lack of dynamic combat in PvE is a big one for me. I love the style of combat where large monsters telegraph their strikes so you have time to dodge. Having a Large reptile creature that just bobs up to you and snap their jaws for an auto hit/miss reminds me that I'm grinding. Having them swing their tail and creature behind get hit or chance to dodge out of the way is fun! To me it's the difference between Runescape combat vs Monster Hunter.

    Another lesser one would be low level gear having legendary skins on. A level 8 mage with robes that shine brighter than a phoenix just seems off.
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  • Pop-in of any texture visible at any distance is difficult for me.

    At a minimum, let me set the distance. Let me decide if I want 45 FPS and see everything or 90 FPS and see pop-ins three feet in front of me.
  • An odd one but unrealistic battle fights.

    An example is the last video where the guy was fight a mushroom. The attack sounds are all associated with a metal and metal battle for the swords. If I am cutting a mushroom it is not count to sound like I am striking metal armor or another sword.
  • For me immersion is very important and can really make the difference between playing the game, and living in the world.

    Outside of the typical cosmetic world breaking type things that other people have already mentioned (non-world related outfits and pop-ins, for example), the biggest immersion breaking things for me are normally around character experience and progression.

    For example, if I'm a brand new level 1 fledgling, I would expect to start out with a race relevant weapon and a basic attack (no class type abilities), and would be required to find a trainer / teacher to begin the journey of learning what classes are available, and learn how to play a particular class. Subsequently I would also expect to be able to learn new abilities or skills from my trainer / teacher after completing some type of quests or events (not just magically know how to do something because I hit a certain level).

    Additionally if I haven't done any awesome feats of heroism in my starting area (or any zone for that matter), I would expect to be offered only a few pretty remedial / basic quests, and progressively be trusted with more meaningful assignments and tasks as I gain reputation with the local community.

    Starting in the world with several class abilities (and just magically learning new skills that pop onto my hot bar upon leveling up) and instantly being seen as a hero to my local community, really breaks my feeling of progress and achievement as my character learns the ropes of their new class, and begins gaining favor with their local community.

    Same goes for crafting. Just hitting a button to automatically start crafting 100 of the same item, in a fraction of the time it took to gather the materials needed for each crafted item, really disconnects me from the sense of progression and achievement when leveling up a crafting profession.

    Especially if we are able to craft legendary and end game items, having some type of skill dependency for crafting, that introduces performance related risk for crafting would be huge from an immersion stand point (large rewards should require some skill and should inherently come with performance related risk).

    Additionally, the learning of new abilities that may be required for more advanced crafting designs, or skills that may help to reduce risk for the creation of more common items, just magically being granted upon leveling, instead of having to complete some form of skill dependent quests or events, really helps to break my sense of immersion into an MMO world.
  • Eques3nEques3n Member
    edited September 18
    My immersion breakers:
    1. Using quests and combat as the "quickest" way to level your character. Who else is just gonna spam the continue button and have no clue about the lore in the world? I know I will if that is the only way to level. Allow life skills to level your character just as quickly.
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    2. Collision with the wrong environmental objects. Getting stuck on a twig sticking out of a bush. Not automatically stepping over a small stone or item in your path that shouldn't require you jump. Things of this nature.
    3. No ragdoll physics on NPCs. If you are galloping down the road on your mount and an NPC is in the road, it should knock them the hell down. Provide penalties to the player if you must, but damn, I am so waiting for some Grand Theft Auto physics for NPCs in an MMORPG.
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    4. Any NPC that is immortal. Make them tough as nails if they need to be, and give them a respawn rate, but they should be able to be killed.
    5. RNG. Please, don't set everything as RNG. Define a way to obtain the item. You can make it as hard / easy as you want, but don't be lazy and base every item drop on simple RNG. Worst experience I have ever had is to spend 150 hours grinding for a rare, powerful item drop and watch someone who just got into the area obtain the same item in 15 minutes.
    Vivere vici cogita mori
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  • I read many times that one of the biggest problems is, that the players have a feeling that all their work doesnt have any effect on anything around them. I have a proposal for the IS-team:

    You could expand a system that you are already working on. I mean the increase and decrease of the town and nodes and their levels. This already works on the EXP that the players in the node are gathering. You could combine this with the spawn-rate of the monsters and wild animals in the node.

    How would that work?
    The more goblins, monsters, animals you kill in a node or a special area, the lesser of this things will spawn for some time in this area. This would be a logical consequence in that area, and it would feel like a little effect on what you do.

    Problems with that?
    Well, if you have quests where everyone has to kill some wolfes or something like that in this area, then this could be somehow frustrating to search for them. This could be solved by spawning them farther away, where they werent before. The big question then would be, how do you want to tell the player, that the wolfes are now elsewhere.

    A posiitive effect of such a system if well balanced could be that by forcing the people to move more around, they would not only see more of your game, but this could have a positive effect on neighbour-nodes and neighbour town-areas, so that they too have a better chance to grow, and not only the one area, where everyone runs through at the beginning.

    The other effect could be, that if for some time nearly no one gathers EXP in some area, than the monster groups could get bigger, and the decreasing speed of the town could increase, because it is becomming a ghost-town. So if you want a nice big city, than do something for it, and do not just travel around elsewhere the whole time.

    Like i said, only a proposal. Maybe it can be used on something completely different, than i wrote here.

  • MarzzoMarzzo Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    1. Excessive armor and weapons
    I really hate super shiny, glowing mega weapons and armors. There needs to be a balance

    2. Silly mounts
    Mounts that look like an intentional meme or troll attempt.

    3. Repetitive monsters and quest designs

    4. Epic items being the norm/common stuff. Epic and especially legendary items should be rare. It should take a shitload of time and dedication to wear and weild powerful equipment. When you beat a super easy raid/dungeon and you get awarded with top rarity stuff it feels bad.
  • Asking the flip side, what induces immersion:

    Mysteries and randomness. It would be so cool to have moments, monuments or npcs in game that are a mystery to the community. I'm thinking Tom Bombadil of AoC. There is a tower that appears in game once a year at a random time. It doesn't need to do anything or provide a function, but simply be an anomaly. There is nothing that brings a a community together like an investigation.

    But it also makes a game feel alive. Look around you, the world is full of mystery that the smartest people don't understand. And especially in AoC, the lore lends itself to mystery.
  • Floating nameplates and HP bars, especially in sieges looks god awful. click or hover over on UI.
  • I think immersion is when you have a game that feels familiar to you, where you can log in after a day at work, or to enjoy the weekend, and you have an idea of what you want to do in the world; whether it be gathering, crafting, protecting caravans, or whatever.
  • immersion.gif?h=250

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!


    Dev Discussion #22 - Immersion
    What were some moments in an MMO that broke your immersion? How much did those moments affect your perception of the game? How important is immersion to you, generally?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding housing and decor tools!

    They destroyed the class I was main on, I mean see if u r nerfing a class nerf it by putting a cool down something like that so that it will be still useable. U will not believe what they did - they just removed the fucking skill to nerf it (the skill I was mastered at) took me 3 years to master it and they just removed it. 🤣👍
  • immersion.gif?h=250

    Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.

    Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!


    Dev Discussion #22 - Immersion
    What were some moments in an MMO that broke your immersion? How much did those moments affect your perception of the game? How important is immersion to you, generally?

    Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding housing and decor tools!

    Keep the builds of classes hidden even in tournaments so that streamer can spectate match but can't spectate build totally.......the reason I tried not to play in tournaments+my friends because we made some very good builds and if other people able to spectate it through streams other noobs use it and after some time those builds got nerfed.... I mean it took like 1 year to 3 years experience to understand the game and make a proper build and someone from stream watching within 2 seconds and making it viral and within 1 week that build dead...whole energy we put from to make that build
    from 3 years went into waste, like it's nothing . It's obvious community get sad isnt it ? That's why I left gw2 .
  • EvachEvach Member
    edited September 21
    Immersion killer, Essentially all glitches that can ignore the laws of physics and get your character killed, including but not limited to:
    • Clipping through walls
    • Camera studdering
    • Rubberbanding player and/or npc
    • Npc immunity
    • Projectiles through walls
    • Aggro through walls (not including if npc's pull in relation to another npc that actually has line of sight on you.)

    Immersion Killer, Information Overload. UI is exploding with notification on things I must complete NOW, and Timers! Especially when the content is irrelevant, or just cosmetic, or old expansion. Minimap is cluttered with low level quests and repeatables that mask what I'm actually tracking/interested in.
    I like to feel like what I choose to do is what actually matters. I may only be gathering chicken eggs, but it feels important, at least until I learn that the dragon is on it's nth return to the furthest kingdom and I fail at the game if I'm not there now!

    Carrot on a stick, previews or examples of the power you may one day achieve, I like these. Breaks my characters story but gives a refreshing change of pace or helps ground me with where I should be in the game.
    • Story Telling flashback to legendary heroes: Hyperbole where the hero decimated multiple enemies with a single move.
    • Training Grounds: Experience riding around as the PVP Castle King on the PVP Elder Dragon, cept it's instanced on scripted npc, so not really what the real experience would be like.
    • Challenge Modes: Trials such as speed dungeons, scored battles. These are effective at building a fair competitive challenge to help train players on what their class is actually capable of. Also an effective tool for balancing classes and roles.

    Immersion Essential:
    • NPC React to title: There goes chicken chaser, welcome back Lord [numerous lord titles here], begone filthy [numerous enemy titles here], Ahh run for your lives [numerous enemy titles here] has arrived.
    • Collision/commentary: Bump/stumble and emote, immersion is broken if you're wedged in a corner by an npcs. Watch where you're running! Mind where you're pointing your sword [weapon drawn]. Bit cold isn't it [missing armor slots]? You should see the blacksmith [damaged gear or gear low for your level].
    • !!!!Choices matter!!!!: Completing the quest generates gives a local buff. Some kind of simple near insignificant event but something the player can synergize with and help chain through their series of quests (OMG I would love this). Incentivizes playing more and completing the quest chain. Could be a player buff, could be an archer in the watch tower with limited # of arrows (refresh on another player completing the quest), could be two guards with new armor running out to patrol/attack mobs until the guards die/retreat at low health (Guards may generally retreat after 3or4 enemies, but if the player chained off them (healed / fought beside) then they could last much longer 20+ even if the player is done after killing 8 enemies), could be fire sale all pies are 5% cheaper or limited time sale of fire breath chili.
    • Mob AI: Flee/Beserk when Ally dies, Flee on last man standing, melee on last man standing otherwise step back and range, flank around on 3+ group up on 2, aoe or single target as appropriate. Smart & Dumb AI moves all have their place (low level/cannon fodder use wrong choices, where as elites have same move set but always pick the optimum choice.)

    Immersion killer: arbitrary lockouts.
    I'm a completionist so I hate being restricted to 1 choice or another, I want them all (greedy) Ie align with 1 faction for these blueprints instead of this other for these other blueprints. And the meta requires you have both. But if you're able to trade between the two, then I see it as acceptable and incentivizes community and economy etc.

    I'm content with quests back and forth, even talking with an npc 5 feet away is okay, providing those 2 npc's are angry or don't talk together for some reason.
    I'm content with repeatable quests. Preferable they shuffle or change. I'd be happy if they generate the local buff I mentioned above. Creates a meta to complete the 5 dailies in this town, if you get a proc of the 1 daily which spawns guards that patrol to kill mobs and help clear your other dailies easier.
    Immersion breaker. When text is too fast for me to read, so I'm reading through the chat log.
  • Will there name plate on the houses to give more feeling of having ourself......will the name plate going to be editable, so that we can write our name on our house.
  • diamahtdiamaht Member, Settler, Founder
    Immersion is broken for me when things do not match in a game world. I mean that colors and themes should be consistent. A neon sign in a medieval world takes me out of the setting.

    Things becoming far too over the top will definitely break immersion. A big, and current, example is when you guys fight the dragon in the lava cave. Everything is fine with that dungeon, then all of sudden these vulnerable mortals are now walking on and swimming through lava. It make no sense and it eliminates the feeling of danger. If I could ask anything it would be to eliminate the superpowers in the environment.

    Stats can also cause immersion to be destroyed. A good example is pre stat crunch WOW. At lvl one you do 30 damage, at lvl 120 you do 11,200,000. It has a "yeah ok" feel to it.
  • The main thing that takes away from immersion for me is bots constantly advertising things in a city or a chat that reaches most people. This is usually and Advertisement for selling in game money so Real World Trading. I know that will not be allowed but some will always get through so limiting how many sneak through would help fix the immersion.
  • ShoelidShoelid Member
    edited September 22
    Just read a thread where somebody said they don't like it when a raid boss is standing in their lair.... doing nothing. It makes it feel gamey, and I think I have to agree. Idle animations for enemies, at least the important ones, add a lot to immersion.

    What if the dragon you and your guildmates are heading to kill isn't just standing there, but instead snoozing away in the warmth of its lair? Or perhaps it knew you guys were coming, so it hides in the shadows of its lair, jumping out and ambushing the players to start the encounter.

    The leader of a bandit group and his two henchmen could be sitting around, playing cards and drinking, instead of standing there, swords out waiting to fight.

    It's something to consider.
  • Shoelid wrote: »
    Just read a thread where somebody said they don't like it when a raid boss is standing in their lair.... doing nothing. It makes it feel gamey, and I think I have to agree. Idle animations for enemies, at least the important ones, add a lot to immersion.

    What if the dragon you and your guildmates are heading to kill isn't just standing there, but instead snoozing away in the warmth of its lair? Or perhaps it knew you guys were coming, so it hides in the shadows of its lair, jumping out and ambushing the players to start the encounter.

    The leader of a bandit group and his two henchmen could be sitting around, playing cards and drinking, instead of standing there, swords out waiting to fight.

    It's something to consider.

    Another thing that works really well is Summoning Rituals!
    Where the chamber is empty, but putting the black skull item on the pentagram summons the boss, or a boss is sealed in stasis and you have to break 4 hourglasses to fight him, etc.
    I wish I were deep and tragic
  • Things I believe Break Immersion and how they effect game play and how important it is to me. Also what games I have seen these things in to give references.
    I am big on Emersion. I want to be lost in game and feel like I am there.

    Load Screens- To Many load screens when entering a town or city. Load screens when entering a different part of the same city or every building with a door in that city. It does become Immersion breaking if you spend soo much time in load screens. Like logging in, then visiting the merchant that is in a load screen door just to load the merchant. Games that are really bad at this SWTOR, Elder Scrolls and Final Fantasy (at least in the main city, where I got to) SWTOR is the worst, if you ever played you would know. ESO the entering building loading screen gets old fast if you are there looting from place to place.
    Motorized Vehicles in a mid-evil Fantasy- Nothing worse than being in a forest exploring really taking everything in and being really emersed when a Motorbike Mounts zips by and just blows that up. World of Warcraft is the worst.

    NPC’s repeating- Big cities have the like 20 girls in the blue dress repeating around every corner. If there is a way to code random NPC Citizens walking around that would be great. Guild Wars 2 was the wort in my opinion.

    Human/Humanoid Mobs all looking the same. Nothing worse that you come across a group of 4 humanoid mobs and the appear to be quadruplets. Then you go to the next group and there also quadruplets. Well that seems to be statically impossible but then the 3rd group is the same thing. SWTOR seems to be the worst at this. If there can be a randomization that would be great. It is not an issue with Creatures like lions.
    Mobs- If there are mobs in an area that are carnivores but they are the only mobs in the area. You look around and wonder how on earth area there so many, let’s say lions, and there is no prey in the area. One may wonder how this species survives with no food source. SWTOR, WOW are kind of bad at this. SWTOR is far worse.

    Mobs- Predators and Prey in the same area but none of them attack each other. A game needs to show some life in these mobs to help with emersion. They do not all need to be fighting in a blood bath but some kind of life in these areas.

    Small Mobs- A MMO needs small wildlife to bring areas to life. It is noticed if these are not in an area. A place can feel just dead without these. Even in Dead places you want small spiders and cockroaches scurrying around. It just ads so much.

    Biodomes- These should blend into each other. A game should not have a Hot Desert next to a blizzard.

    Day/Night cycles- This is also a must. When I go to a place it should not always be day. Even having different mobs at night appear is a great idea. New World was trying this, and I thought it was great.

    Weather – is a good thing

    I hope I made some good points to you. I know when I play an MMO I love feeling like I am playing art that is alive and moving. It takes some work to get that I know. The work is noticed though to the players.
    THX for your time. I hope to be able to play your art soon =)
  • Immersion=Uniqueness.

    When all the dwarves (same level) with heavy armor look the same.... yuk!
    When all the Elves with a Bow (same level) look the same... :)

    Some of this has been addressed but making sure it stays in the mix.

    And this may not even be a possibility but... once in awhile, changing up the flow of trade would be nice. Beyond pvp for a caravan... having routes blocked by say a flash flood or fallen bridge that needs repaired... after a thousand deliveries, the transit becomes mundane.
  • i would like to find this game like hiperrealistic if can, why?, bc it would make the ppl and the comunity better getting some skills that nowdays are lost just bc everything is so easy, but not only in mechanics, in every aspect as well from animations to limitations, i belive that this game could losse some players but anyone can always look for guides for do some stuff and that is when players really learn and improve themselfs
  • Regarding immersion:
    1. Inventory: Weight limit while leveling shouldnt be a problem after 30 minutes of farming, i experienced this problem when i played BDO, you had to stock all your drops every 30 mins (what i mean is that you had to go town to leave your farmed items in a close period of time) of farming, which end up being tedious PVE experience. You spent more time traveling to stock/restock items than farming.
    2. Travelling times: Im going to put same mmorpg example, BDO travelling times were ridicolous, and that chains with the first point, in wich you had to go town to put the items you farmed in the warehouse. Lets say you played 3-4 hours per day, with such travelling times (because you had to move yourself through the map with mount, there was no teleport or gatekeeper option) you spend atleast 1 hour out of 3-4 hours just running around with your mount to travel from point A to point B.

    I think that this are the 2 main ideas that comes to my mind at that moment, i hope i have explained myself correctly and clear.

    Cheers, thanks.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    If the art doesn't have a clear direction it can greatly affect my immersion. A big part of this is the type of pets/mounts that can be found in game. If the pet or mount doesn't have a clear place in the world and lore then my immersion is completely broken.

    Also, any sort of cash shop reminders in game. A little tab (nothing flashing) for the cash in a corner of UI is acceptable, but anything beyond that is a big no no.
  • HeartbeatHeartbeat Member, Founder
    Loading screens and emphasis on systems that force you to use some sort of interface, the more a game can play without having to have some pop-up in order for you to finish a task the more immersive it can be and the more consistent it can be imo.
  • I find immersion to be rather important for my experience, it's what keeps me thinking of the game while i'm not playing and wanting to come back for more.

    World
    The world is where immersion is the most important for me, as an example, i no longer play league of legends, but the lore has me so interested that i keep myself updated with the game.

    Boosted by:
    • Memorable character stories and places
    • NPC's having tasks or daily paths
    • Pride in your race/guild/city/group
    • Rivalry towards race/guild/city/group

    Hurt by:
    1. Poor story telling
    2. Areas that feel like they have a distinct purpose or quest associated with them, and limited to that.

    Gameplay
    A game lives and dies off it's combat system even when it comes to immersion a bad combat system can take you out of the moment, so that has to be good, but other than that.

    Boosted by
    1. Good flow in the animations
    2. Characters and attacks having the illusion of weight

    Hurt by:
    1. NPC's getting stuck / poor pathing
    2. "Disco" AoE spells and effects

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  • IrohnicIrohnic Member
    the concept of something breaking immersion for me is not really an issue, but I really enjoy any time that you get to really use the special mechanics of your class to do things in a unique way that other classes can't outside of just combat functioning differently. To me that builds immersion more than anything. For example, my favorite times in MMO's have often been playing stealth classes and using that stealth aspect to complete hard quests or move through dungeons in a way that lets me find ways to solo or duo specific content not possible with non-stealth classes. Stealth is the most obvious example of such times, but I think other classes could have similar types of mechanics built in that let you approach dungeons or other content in a new way (maybe present obstacles that only certain classes can get through with their abilities/augments in a given dungeon, allowing certain group comps easy access to a boss or something of that sort; a mage blinking across a chasm, a jump to a high ledge, maybe a cool farm spot locked behind a gateway that only opens with 3 people standing on various stones, but a summoner can get solo access with his summons: random non-combat stuff like that not necessarily specific to combat differences).
  • Balrog21Balrog21 Member
    @Irohnic they are implementing certain abilities of the archetypes for each. I.e. rogues finding hidden doors, clerics cleansing dangerous poison mists, etc...that is the only two we know of atm I think.
  • MedrashMedrash Member
    edited 5:02PM
    It's simple, if a game is fun and well designed it will be immersive. Everything can broke your immersion if badly designed .. lies in videogames usually broke my immersion. When they promise you something and then you don't get it, or just non sense limitations and everything that kills a gameplay.
    A player must be able to do everything he desire into a videogame, or get the most free expression you can give them , so they will be absorbed by the game. Fun=Immersion. Variety and differentiation are key.

    Equipments and mounts need to be linked by lore, gameplay and look i think. if you miss something it will be less immersive. An example , if you hunt a rare beast but at the end everyone has that beast as a pet. No lies .. rare means rare. The same with every object present in the game. Also the gameplay is important, if you make a cool weapon , that is rly rare and powerful, you cannot assign to it low stats, just becouse it has a lower level of a pickfork of a farmer that has a bigger lvl of the demon you killed to obtain the cool weapon.
    Everything need to be linked together .. then the player can walk through the links without crossing a blank point.

    Ah ... i just want to add that ... when the player animation does everytime the same crazy and absurd spin in the air to throw a simple ball of fire. I saw it in your gameplay videos xD . I actually don't know what it is, but it's pretty strange to see a guy dancing and doing levitation into a battle with no purpose.
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