Open world raids

There is not much information about this, but it seems that there is no limitation for the amount of raid groups inside open world raids.

Do you think it is plausible that people will just take every guild member that is online and divide them into 40m raid groups to cheese all bosses by the sheer number of people?

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Tragnar

How insightful,

not only 20% of content is confirmed to be instanced

but you disagree without any reasoning

bigepeen

Tragnar wrote: »

but you disagree without any reasoning

I responded to a baseless assumption with a baseless assumption. Seems fair to me.

Tragnar wrote: »

How insightful,
not only 20% of content is confirmed to be instanced

Intrepid has said that the 20% refers to dungeons. If raids are exclusively world boss dungeons, then no raids are said to be instanced. They have said that scarce resources are going to be contested, and instancing will be for tutorial and story-related quests, not for anything very relevant. Noaani is arguing for relevant instanced raid content.

Noaani

bigepeen wrote: »

I responded to a baseless assumption with a baseless assumption. Seems fair to me.

It wasn't baseless, I provided my reasoning.

You disagreeing with it does not mean it is baseless.

Tragnar

All information about raids is extremely vague at best with contradicting goals that they want to make work with system workarounds.

I'm talking about raids being open world and having them difficult from PvE view so only tiny percentage of players is capable to kill.

Usually people with such contradicting goals make sacrifices for both goals in order to make them happen at least partially.

I would love to see both goals come to full fruition without sacrifices along the way, but we don't have information on how IS want to see that happen. Having goals is amazing, but the reality cannot lag behind otherwise the goals become empty promises

bigepeen

Noaani wrote: »

bigepeen wrote: »

I responded to a baseless assumption with a baseless assumption. Seems fair to me.

It wasn't baseless, I provided my reasoning.

You disagreeing with it does not mean it is baseless.

The thing is, you are only seeing it from your perspective. People who are obsessed with instanced PvE will think that AoC "needs" it to be more relevant. The game itself does not "need" it just because a small minority of players (for whom the game isn't designed for in the first place) say they "need" it, just in the same way that FF14 doesn't need PvP to be successful. You have no proof that AoC needs it in order to be successful.

Tragnar

It is extremely amusing to hear that PvE playerbase is minority and PvP playerbase is the majority. If anything this is literally the first time I ever heard that and I heard only the exact opposite.

Another thing is that Ashes needs to have well designed rules and rewards for PvP in order to make the open world work. However in my opinion to make a PvP centric MMO succesful is straight up delusional. So I am glad that Ashes is aiming to be PvX - as meaning to have both with good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration

bigepeen

Tragnar wrote: »

All information about raids is extremely vague at best with contradicting goals that they want to make work with system workarounds.

I'm talking about raids being open world and having them difficult from PvE view so only tiny percentage of players is capable to kill.

Usually people with such contradicting goals make sacrifices for both goals in order to make them happen at least partially.

I would love to see both goals come to full fruition without sacrifices along the way, but we don't have information on how IS want to see that happen. Having goals is amazing, but the reality cannot lag behind otherwise the goals become empty promises

Tragnar wrote: »

It is extremely amusing to hear that PvE playerbase is minority and PvP playerbase is the majority. If anything this is literally the first time I ever heard that and I heard only the exact opposite.

Another thing is that Ashes needs to have well designed rules and rewards for PvP in order to make the open world work. However in my opinion to make a PvP centric MMO succesful is straight up delusional. So I am glad that Ashes is aiming to be PvX - as meaning to have both with good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration

Sigh. I never said PvP is the majority. Please stop mischaracterizing my arguments. In every poll I've seen, people who consider themselves PvX players outnumber PvE and PvP players combined in this community. I'm glad Ashes is PvX too.

Where did I say that I want this game to be PvP-centric? I would like challenging and plentiful PvE. The thing I've been arguing against this whole time is instanced PvE. You guys are making way too many assumptions about what is or isn't possible based on a dying game.

Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

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If you leave that content in the open world, then you get to fight over it once a week (or so). That is all it is able to be killed, that is a limited about of that PvP over top end items that can happen before the materials are taken off and made in to items.

Put a few (literally just a few) encounters in instances and they may well be killed 10 or more times a week, which means more of those top end items for players to fight over - but not so many as to decrease the value of those items.

This is a really easy thing for Intrepid to implement, and so isn't an argument against instances, but ratehr a discussion about how instanced rewards should be structured (one that I think you and I would likely agree on).

Can you explain these first two paragraphs in more detail the way this reads to me is that open world content would be killed once per week, where as instanced content could be killed 10x per week (Is this because it's easier to kill NPCs inside of instances after all?).

Lastly yes I'm sure instances would be easy to implement, my rewards for instanced content would be ZERO. I do not understand why you should reward anyone for zoning into la la land to kill an NPC just so they can claim the rewards without interruption. I'll never understand why this should be rewarded even if it takes a guild or server 100 attempts to defeat that NPC.

I would also like you to answer this @Noaani . If everything that is dropped inside of the instance can be looted - why is this any different to you if you die before/while fighting the NPC than after you zone out of the instance? You seem to claim you're doing the PvPers a service by killing the NPC zoning out so they can then kill/loot you. If that is the case why are you in favor of it? See this is the confusing part to me, if your argument is "well we would just get killed after zoning out anyway" then you're essentially agreeing to kill the NPC for no rewards right now.

Tragnar

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Because there are many new age MMO gamers like you who never played any of the old school games before it was all broken down into PvP and PvE and you just did both and didn't whine about it. This IS a PvX game you have been explained over and over and over again what the game's PvX will entail. I'm sorry you are having trouble wrapping your brain around it.

World Bosses are absolutely PvE activities no matter if you introduce a PvP element to it. There's still a boss, with boss mechanics that you need to kill.

Mojottv

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

I don't get it... why not the other way around, if you have pve in pvp activity why it doesn't transform into pve activity?

Tyrantor

Tragnar wrote: »

I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

You would be stressing the wrong thing of course, all that is being done is that players are being given the freedom to choose between the consequence of PvP and the reward of it. If the PvE activity is worth the reward, you would be choosing to assume this risk and just because the risk is present does not mean that PvE no longer exists, since you would still get the PvE reward if successful no?

Tragnar

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Because there are many new age MMO gamers like you who never played any of the old school games before it was all broken down into PvP and PvE and you just did both and didn't whine about it. This IS a PvX game you have been explained over and over and over again what the game's PvX will entail. I'm sorry you are having trouble wrapping your brain around it.

When you are talking about those old school games then I am truly sorry - those are not PvX games, those are PvP game with basic PvE that any person can participate in. I can see that you are having a problem with wrapping your brain around challenging PvE

World Bosses are absolutely PvE activities no matter if you introduce a PvP element to it. There's still a boss, with boss mechanics that you need to kill.

This is straight up delusional. PvP is in its core nature transformative activity - anything that you want to do in addition is just a flavor to the PvP nature of it.

The only PvE content that has allowed PvP is one its loot is completely irrelevant

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Because there are many new age MMO gamers like you who never played any of the old school games before it was all broken down into PvP and PvE and you just did both and didn't whine about it. This IS a PvX game you have been explained over and over and over again what the game's PvX will entail. I'm sorry you are having trouble wrapping your brain around it.

When you are talking about those old school games then I am truly sorry - those are not PvX games, those are PvP game with basic PvE that any person can participate in. I can see that you are having a problem with wrapping your brain around challenging PvE

World Bosses are absolutely PvE activities no matter if you introduce a PvP element to it. There's still a boss, with boss mechanics that you need to kill.

This is straight up delusional. PvP is in its core nature transformative activity - anything that you want to in addition is just a flavor to the PvP nature of it.

The only PvE content that has allowed PvP is one its loot is completely irrelevant

I can already tell you that if you don't like those old school MMORPGs you are absolutely not going to like this game. You are being absurd by suggesting PvE encounters aren't PvE anymore if you have to PvP over them. That's gonna be the entire game bub.

Tragnar

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Because there are many new age MMO gamers like you who never played any of the old school games before it was all broken down into PvP and PvE and you just did both and didn't whine about it. This IS a PvX game you have been explained over and over and over again what the game's PvX will entail. I'm sorry you are having trouble wrapping your brain around it.

When you are talking about those old school games then I am truly sorry - those are not PvX games, those are PvP game with basic PvE that any person can participate in. I can see that you are having a problem with wrapping your brain around challenging PvE

World Bosses are absolutely PvE activities no matter if you introduce a PvP element to it. There's still a boss, with boss mechanics that you need to kill.

This is straight up delusional. PvP is in its core nature transformative activity - anything that you want to in addition is just a flavor to the PvP nature of it.

The only PvE content that has allowed PvP is one its loot is completely irrelevant

I can already tell you that if you don't like those old school MMORPGs you are absolutely not going to like this game. You are being absurd by suggesting PvE encounters aren't PvE anymore if you have to PvP over them. That's gonna be the entire game bub.

Amazing so right now you just confirmed that you think Ashes is pure PvP-centric game. How fabulous

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

Bricktop wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

I wish Steven never said PvX, because so many people have no idea what to imagine under such a vague statement.

The most common explanation of PvX I have seen is to have in the game both PvP and PvE activities while at the same time having good rules to avoid unnecessary frustration that makes people quit the game.

Also I do not understand people that are trying to say that PvPvE activities (which are world bosses in many MMO's) are PvE activities. I need to stress out that if you allow PvP in any activity you then transform that said activity into a PvP activity

Because there are many new age MMO gamers like you who never played any of the old school games before it was all broken down into PvP and PvE and you just did both and didn't whine about it. This IS a PvX game you have been explained over and over and over again what the game's PvX will entail. I'm sorry you are having trouble wrapping your brain around it.

When you are talking about those old school games then I am truly sorry - those are not PvX games, those are PvP game with basic PvE that any person can participate in. I can see that you are having a problem with wrapping your brain around challenging PvE

World Bosses are absolutely PvE activities no matter if you introduce a PvP element to it. There's still a boss, with boss mechanics that you need to kill.

This is straight up delusional. PvP is in its core nature transformative activity - anything that you want to in addition is just a flavor to the PvP nature of it.

The only PvE content that has allowed PvP is one its loot is completely irrelevant

I can already tell you that if you don't like those old school MMORPGs you are absolutely not going to like this game. You are being absurd by suggesting PvE encounters aren't PvE anymore if you have to PvP over them. That's gonna be the entire game bub.

Amazing so right now you just confirmed that you think Ashes is pure PvP-centric game. How fabulous

I have said time and time again this is a PvP centric game there's no secret there. Nodes are centered around PvP. Resource movement is centered around PvP through caravans. Dungeons and raids are tied to nodes, which is determined by PvP as we said. Dungeons and raids are open world, which is determined by PvP. Dungeons and raids can be camped and made unavailable through PvP. Castles are determined through PvP.
I mean how much more obvious can they make it to you before you grasp that you are gonna need to PvP very often in this game. When will you see the writing on the wall?

Just look at the four games they took inspiration from. Eve, Archeage, Lineage 2, and Star Wars Galaxies. All of these are PvX styled MMOs, with 3 of them being "Old School" (Which you hate) and all of them have an asburd amount of PvP in them. Steven has said himself that he never really played WoW, and they aren't taking inspiration from WoW. There will be no easy PvE instances for you to get top end gear in. This completely goes against the entire vision of the game.

Tragnar

If what you say is true then Steven should come out and make it clear and allow refunds for their shop (I was hooked in under the presumption that there will be challenging PvE content) - if everything in the game is just means to do PvP then I'll just avoid Ashes alltogether.

However Steven never said what you are telling me now. So until he does I just assume that what you are telling me is just one part of the game and I am content to wait for additional info about PvE so that we can know what it will be about.

Bricktop

Tragnar wrote: »

If what you say is true then Steven should come out and make it clear and allow refunds for their shop (I was hooked in under the presumption that there will be challenging PvE content) - if everything in the game is just means to do PvP then I'll just avoid Ashes alltogether.

However Steven never said what you are telling me now. So until he does I just assume that what you are telling me is just one part of the game and I am content to wait for additional info about PvE so that we can know what it will be about.

Hey you never know, maybe that 20% instancing will be satisfactory.

Mojottv

Tragnar wrote: »

If what you say is true then Steven should come out and make it clear and allow refunds for their shop (I was hooked in under the presumption that there will be challenging PvE content) - if everything in the game is just means to do PvP then I'll just avoid Ashes alltogether.

However Steven never said what you are telling me now. So until he does I just assume that what you are telling me is just one part of the game and I am content to wait for additional info about PvE so that we can know what it will be about.

Dude, again PVX means player against everything, so means pve and pvp are eaqualy important parts, no pvp without pve and no pve without pvp. So if youre looking game for just pve content its not for you. But i would suggest giving it a try, you might like it, as no modern mmo has thys sistem

Tragnar

You guys don't understand simple fact.

If everything in the game is a subject to PvP then it is a hard pass for a lot of people - myself included. If all that Ashes aims to be is a PvP playground for PvP monopoly treadmill with few thousand players then all power to you.

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