DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Chunks

Tragnar wrote: »

@Chunks Btw the "builds" that people want to create only by trial and error - well you guys are going to be on average bottom tier players with or without meters. In any game that is decided by numbers everyone that wants to get better is stripping the "feels good reasons" and is looking for facts on what is working and what is not.

This is a "wait and see" thing to me, being on the outside looking in. Seeing how limited our selection of active and passive abilities will be for any given moment gives me hope that'll it be more about HOW the build is used, rather than WHAT the build is - for any build. Assuming builds will have strong and weak points varying on context. And then that just takes me full circle as how the meter would be used to exaggerate the significance of difference in production... bob law lob law... you get where that goes.

Tragnar

The average MMO player has on average no clue what is good, how the game works etc. So if above average player accumulated enough knowledge and practice in the game then of course he is gonna look like god in comparison. That doesn't mean the build that he came up with is great or even approaching being the best. Don't forget that most of the collaborative content in the MMO genre is just time consuming and not in any way difficult.

Littlekenny21

I would like to see my own dps but if there are accurate damage and scaling values on the tooltips so I can do the maths myself, I'm fine without one.

winner909098

I dont like them because they detract from the immersion.

Tragnar

winner909098 wrote: »

I dont like them because they detract from the immersion.

How counting numbers detracts from immersion, but seeing the numbers does not?

Irohnic

this is a long thread, so I'm just gonna throw in my opinion with the rest. I currently organize a lot of raids in classic wow for a casual guild that ends up having to pug about 25-35% of the 40 man raid spots. It is a blast and we experience true progression raiding, where we have success, hit a wall, work on it, improve and eventually keep progressing over the course of varios months. It would be nearly impossible to make these raids successful if it weren't for dps meters and logs letting me a.) filter out people who just want to be carried and/or foreign gold farmers who haven't a clue how to raid, and b.) help our core members and good raiders to improve via feedback from logs. Keep in mind this is for content that is so easy for most guilds that they can steam roll what was designed to be multi-hour raids in under half an hour. Hardcore players will always min/max through theorycrafting, regardless of if they have logs or dps meters. Those things are more tools for the casual guild or pug groups than they are for min/maxing, so if you exclude them from the game and give us no way to assess the members of a raid, I can't imagine you being able to create 40 man content that provides at least somewhat of a challenge for the hardcore guilds, while still being playable by casual guilds and pug groups. The progressive content system where later bosses get harder based on how easily you kill the first ones is a good idea to somewhat alleviate this issue by providing content for all levels of competitiveness, but ultimately, the casual groups will be stuck at their lower level of content and loot with no way to progress into the higher difficulty settings if they have no feedback from performance.

Mojottv

Irohnic wrote: »

this is a long thread, so I'm just gonna throw in my opinion with the rest. I currently organize a lot of raids in classic wow for a casual guild that ends up having to pug about 25-35% of the 40 man raid spots. It is a blast and we experience true progression raiding, where we have success, hit a wall, work on it, improve and eventually keep progressing over the course of varios months. It would be nearly impossible to make these raids successful if it weren't for dps meters and logs letting me a.) filter out people who just want to be carried and/or foreign gold farmers who haven't a clue how to raid, and b.) help our core members and good raiders to improve via feedback from logs. Keep in mind this is for content that is so easy for most guilds that they can steam roll what was designed to be multi-hour raids in under half an hour. Hardcore players will always min/max through theorycrafting, regardless of if they have logs or dps meters. Those things are more tools for the casual guild or pug groups than they are for min/maxing, so if you exclude them from the game and give us no way to assess the members of a raid, I can't imagine you being able to create 40 man content that provides at least somewhat of a challenge for the hardcore guilds, while still being playable by casual guilds and pug groups. The progressive content system where later bosses get harder based on how easily you kill the first ones is a good idea to somewhat alleviate this issue by providing content for all levels of competitiveness, but ultimately, the casual groups will be stuck at their lower level of content and loot with no way to progress into the higher difficulty settings if they have no feedback from performance.

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

Darquewing

I've done up to mythic raiding in WoW (with minimum add-ons to fully customized raid-centric UIs) and Savage Trials/Raids in FFXIV. They had their perks and drawbacks.

WoW was cool for people who liked crunching numbers. I wasn't one of them though. I was usually brought along because my wife is a boss healer who won't generally raid without me. I liked the dance of raiding, so I focused on mechanics and utilitarian aspects. I could off-tank and help out in emergency situations as a pally as well. But I gauged success of a run based on how fun it felt. And that meant anything from a night of wipes to a perfect run.

In FFXIV, it was all about looking cool and team synergy. Numbers were a personal thing, and I found that to keep the toxicity at bay a lot.

As far as what I find fun, it would be having character stats as a numberless sliding scale where extreme physical stats can even effect physical appearance. Any gear you get, appearance should usually tell you where on the garbage-cheap-average-good-great-artifact scale things go, and that's your guidepost for item/material stats, but you need pertinent skills to learn about any special abilities, or get a better idea of quality. (But still not exact)

I tend to like the idea of heavy obfuscation of number mechanics/stats, with entities and objects using marginal/conditional distributions on generated stats. Sometimes two goblins are basically the same. Sometimes one might be cake, and the other might put you in the dirt if you're not paying attention. If you get lucky, it was cause he had unusually high-quality item, and it just dropped for you. Well... That might be it. Gonna have to try it to see....

The long sword you just made feels better balanced than the one you made earlier. Either your skill went up or you got lucky. Time will tell.

I'm absolutely sure that this does nothing to prevent the meta-game. But it does prevent total pigeon holing, I believe. I mean when one way of doing something only causes a 10% difference with a +/-5% margin of error on starting conditions, with a +-5% margin of error on situational conditions, it really becomes what feels right to you, and what has worked for you. People are less likely to be able to be held to do things in specific ways due to slim differences in build or output. People are less likely to be be judged on gear/technique and more execution and results.

I know it's not a supremely popular idea, as a lot of RPG players care about the numbers. But give me a dancing sword, or a dagger that summons a shadow beast, and I'll take that over similar items that do 10% more damage over all. At least have, for the player, various unascertainable margins of error within the numbers that make PC life messy enough to allow for some mystery/variety.

Irohnic

Mojottv wrote: »

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

Ya if that's what they're going for then keeping out dps meters is the right move. If there is still enough content in the game to keep all player types interested, then it can work out great, and what they are currently aiming for certainly looks that way. Personally, I would rather keep raiding content available to as wide of a population as possible, and just leave the best loot, mounts, etc. for the hardcore guilds via the loot/difficulty scaling system, but I can understand and respect that some people would want only a small percentage of the population having even a chance at experiencing the higher tiers of content. It does make that stuff more meaningful if you're the only doing it.

edit: mistype

maouw

@Darquewing
I like your idea of number-less meters, could also have icons that show when someone is applying a debuff/status effect/etc.

But the problem still remains that another piece of UI will be cluttering the screen - unless it's something you can only see by talking to an NPC after the raid is finished?

I'm totally on your vibe though, that fun is way more important than efficiency/min-maxing.

Noaani

Mojottv wrote: »

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

So, you are saying that you think the developers at Intrepid are so bad at their job that they can't tune content at all, correct?

Because that is literally the only way this argument holds any weight.

As soon as the developers understand the notion of tuning content, this argument is out the window.

While I may have very little faith in Steven, I do have faith in the staff he has. They know what they are doing, even if the ship is essentially captainless.

Mojottv

Irohnic wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

Ya if that's what they're going for then keeping out dps meters is the right move. If there is still enough content in the game to keep all player types interested, then it can work out great, and what they are currently aiming for certainly looks that way. Personally, I would rather keep raiding content available to as wide of a population as possible, and just leave the best loot, mounts, etc. for the hardcore guilds via the loot/difficulty scaling system, but I can understand and respect that some people would want only a small percentage of the population having even a chance at experiencing the higher tiers of content. It does make that stuff more meaningful if you're the only doing it.

edit: mistype

Well, i theory all content will be available to all players, nothing will be actually locked out its just a fact that not all players are skilled enough and some simply don't have the time as some others, so its possible that everyone could experience all content, just the ones who are skilled and have more time will beat that content sooner. Others behind might only be able to do it a year after, some might leave the some without ever doing it. I am all for it and i think its fair that a nolifer beats content and gets better shit that me sooner, than me

Marcet

Noaani wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

So, you are saying that you think the developers at Intrepid are so bad at their job that they can't tune content at all, correct?

Because that is literally the only way this argument holds any weight.

As soon as the developers understand the notion of tuning content, this argument is out the window.

While I may have very little faith in Steven, I do have faith in the staff he has. They know what they are doing, even if the ship is essentially captainless.

You just casually disrespect the person who makes all of this project posible from his own pocket??

No one likes you, if you haven't noticed yet. Gtfo.

Irohnic

Mojottv wrote: »

Irohnic wrote: »

Mojottv wrote: »

well it was stated by devs, that a lot of top end contend will be beaten by small percentage of players who are really good. So i was making this point all along that dpa meters will make stuff easier and i dont like it tbh. I think not everything needs to be beaten by everyone. And adding stuff like dps meeters lowers the bar.

Ya if that's what they're going for then keeping out dps meters is the right move. If there is still enough content in the game to keep all player types interested, then it can work out great, and what they are currently aiming for certainly looks that way. Personally, I would rather keep raiding content available to as wide of a population as possible, and just leave the best loot, mounts, etc. for the hardcore guilds via the loot/difficulty scaling system, but I can understand and respect that some people would want only a small percentage of the population having even a chance at experiencing the higher tiers of content. It does make that stuff more meaningful if you're the only doing it.

edit: mistype

Well, i theory all content will be available to all players, nothing will be actually locked out its just a fact that not all players are skilled enough and some simply don't have the time as some others, so its possible that everyone could experience all content, just the ones who are skilled and have more time will beat that content sooner. Others behind might only be able to do it a year after, some might leave the some without ever doing it. I am all for it and i think its fair that a nolifer beats content and gets better shit that me sooner, than me

The more I look into it, the more I think it's going depend very heavily on how good the difficulty scaling system is. As a WoW raid leader I really did not like spending a bunch of time pouring over logs to try to decipher how the group could improve, but it was necessary, and when the guild progresses the satisfaction is totally worth it. I'm hesitant to believe AoC will be able to capture the same sense of progression without some sort of numerical feedback, but hopeful, because if they can do it, that would be a great system to play under, and definitely one which I would prefer.

Emerin

Long story short, it can and will be abused, but it's also very useful.

I like a damage/healing meter to see if I can improve, but of course all the things mentioned in this thread can happen too: elitism, obligatory meta and people who think their dps rules all and forget about both synergy and crowd control.

I don't really think it matters, though. If people want to be like that then I don't want to hang around with them anyway. That could be because they want to be more serious about it (which is not wrong!) or because they need compensation. It's a different playstyle and that's fine. Honestly, I care not.

I will find the people who are like me: willing to try anything to see if it works, going out of their way to do so and letting it go if it really doesn't work. Some people hate this, and that's fine too.

You're supposed to find like-minded people anyway, and there will be enough of each "group" to have fun.

Apart from that I'm usually a healer or tank and I'd like to check if it is indeed me or someone is just not interrupting/roasting their behind on the barbie, because you will ALWAYS be blamed, dps meter or no.

Tragnar

Not allowing numbers in any game works only if you don't allow players to customize their build and that they should only focus on what they have and improving themselves.

If you want to transform Ashes (they currently have numbers) into a game without numbers then you basically doom the whole project, because you either make the game super easy so every build is viable and the only thing you can improve on is speedrunning. Or you just doom the playerbase, because nobody will play from frustration on not knowing what the customization does.

Customizing a character goes hand in hand with numbers. I definitely enjoyed RPG's that didn't have numbers, because they were never about creating a character build, but about improving your own gameplay and consuming the content it provided.

MMO without numbers just doesnt work, because most difficulty in the genre is about a static numerical obstacle with a baseline skill level requirement that you eventually can overcome with time.

Hiding information about decisions that you present the player with is just objective bad design. You don't give players 2 choices and say to him that one will help him overcome the coming obstacles, but you will not allow him to find out which one it is. It is literally the same decision as gambling on slot machines - the outcome doesn't depend on the player or his choices

Irohnic

Tragnar wrote: »

Not allowing numbers in any game works only if you don't allow players to customize their build and that they should only focus on what they have and improving themselves.

If you want to transform Ashes (they currently have numbers) into a game without numbers then you basically doom the whole project, because you either make the game super easy so every build is viable and the only thing you can improve on is speedrunning. Or you just doom the playerbase, because nobody will play from frustration on not knowing what the customization does.

Customizing a character goes hand in hand with numbers. I definitely enjoyed RPG's that didn't have numbers, because they were never about creating a character build, but about improving your own gameplay and consuming the content it provided.

MMO without numbers just doesnt work, because most difficulty in the genre is about a static numerical obstacle with a baseline skill level requirement that you eventually can overcome with time.

Hiding information about decisions that you present the player with is just objective bad design. You don't give players 2 choices and say to him that one will help him overcome the coming obstacles, but you will not allow him to find out which one it is. It is literally the same decision as gambling on slot machines - the outcome doesn't depend on the player or his choices

my understanding is they are not trying to remove numbers from the game. I think Steven recognizes doing more damage is part of individual progression and doesn't want to take that away. I believe the idea is you'll still see how much damage you're doing with each hit, crit, etc., so theorycrafting builds will absolutely still be in the game and the so called "meta" for high-end content. Any individual will be able to improve that way and a raid group will be able to do the same, provided everyone is invested in their own improvement via theorycrafting and testing. DPS meters just make this process easier, so by eliminating DPS meters you aren't necessarily removing the aspect of optomization via customization, but you are making it more difficult. The positives of such a switch is removing the toxicity that dps meters can enable, as outlined by various people in this thread.

Xbet

So I dont really post much on anything, but i have to say my part here;
I have played 2 mmo's the most wow, and ArcheAge, AA 4 years, and wow since 2nd week it was released, and the contrast from what wow has become to what it was is shown in all the damage meters true min max pure insulting people based on a stat sheet, when i have played with people who were support roles, always interrupting, ccing, buffing the group and helping in anyway they could, and there damage was lower than average, and these people got pointed at (wrongly) from people looking at a single sheet first is X 2nd is Y etc and if your not high up then your not good,
the contrast ArcheAge, quite possibly the best mmo i played no damage meters no mods no need for any of that, you proved your worth with your ability to play the game, make gold, live in pvp combat 1v1 fighting over recourses, and this is how proved my worth into the top nation on the server that dominated for years, not a need for a damage meter or a heal meter
from what i see and know from AoC it is to be the more evolved living and experiencing MMO like ArcheAge was, not the raw math game of wow, and dont get me wrong there will be cookie cutter builds and rotations, but this was found in ArcheAge with out the need for a damage meter, you learnt who was with you when you won and lost fights, you felt the game you experienced it and your fellow players, there is little need to see on a damage meter who is preforming and who is not based on that metric,

i know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, and i spend my time going through wow logs even today, but just because its there and i use it, doesn't mean its the best way to do it, because its there you have to use it, or you are left behind,

just to also add, from all i see from AoC they are taking the mmo back to roots, and trying to remove the p2w model of so many games that only lives from whales, take it back to the original point where we can all remember the first time we went into an MMO how big the game was how it was so much info you had to try and figure out, not relying on a data base to check you are jumping through hoops correctly, not just on boss mech, but also rotation which is all wow is now, its not fun for me a serious mmo no lifer, there is a reason wow classic doubled wow subscriptions, and i think AoC dev's understand why.

I think the first few comments here that said no dmg meters one even being a creator are the ones i hope this follows, it stays true with all i know and have seen from AoC keep up the good work and ty for making what looks to be the best MMO iv ever seen.

ty for reading.

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

You just casually disrespect the person who makes all of this project posible from his own pocket??

It was not done without careful consideration.

A fully open PvP game with a summons system designed for casual players.
A loot system that rewards performance, with no way for players to guage performance.
A game where rewards are generated via PvE, yet with no discernable intent on sustainable PvE.
A developer claiming to not want players to have to focus on the UI, yet making it so the only way players can see the armor type an opponent is wearing in PvP is by looking at a UI element.

These are not markers of a game with a solid direction. They are markers of someone making it up as they go.

Noaani

@Xbet

Xbet wrote: »

So I dont really post much on anything, but i have to say my part here;
I have played 2 mmo's the most wow, and ArcheAge, AA 4 years, and wow since 2nd week it was released, and the contrast from what wow has become to what it was is shown in all the damage meters true min max pure insulting people based on a stat sheet, when i have played with people who were support roles, always interrupting, ccing, buffing the group and helping in anyway they could, and there damage was lower than average, and these people got pointed at (wrongly) from people looking at a single sheet first is X 2nd is Y etc and if your not high up then your not good,
the contrast ArcheAge, quite possibly the best mmo i played no damage meters no mods no need for any of that, you proved your worth with your ability to play the game, make gold, live in pvp combat 1v1 fighting over recourses, and this is how proved my worth into the top nation on the server that dominated for years, not a need for a damage meter or a heal meter
from what i see and know from AoC it is to be the more evolved living and experiencing MMO like ArcheAge was, not the raw math game of wow, and dont get me wrong there will be cookie cutter builds and rotations, but this was found in ArcheAge with out the need for a damage meter, you learnt who was with you when you won and lost fights, you felt the game you experienced it and your fellow players, there is little need to see on a damage meter who is preforming and who is not based on that metric,

i know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people, and i spend my time going through wow logs even today, but just because its there and i use it, doesn't mean its the best way to do it, because its there you have to use it, or you are left behind,

just to also add, from all i see from AoC they are taking the mmo back to roots, and trying to remove the p2w model of so many games that only lives from whales, take it back to the original point where we can all remember the first time we went into an MMO how big the game was how it was so much info you had to try and figure out, not relying on a data base to check you are jumping through hoops correctly, not just on boss mech, but also rotation which is all wow is now, its not fun for me a serious mmo no lifer, there is a reason wow classic doubled wow subscriptions, and i think AoC dev's understand why.

I think the first few comments here that said no dmg meters one even being a creator are the ones i hope this follows, it stays true with all i know and have seen from AoC keep up the good work and ty for making what looks to be the best MMO iv ever seen.

ty for reading.

A few points.

Archeage had a combat tracker, I used it for about 3 years. It wasn't popular, but it existed.

Second, Archeage has no PvE content to speak of, and literally no top end PvE content. The dragon, Kraken and Leviathan were top end PvP content - but were not difficult encounters if taken on without competition. This lack of top end PvE means combat trackers are far less useful than in a game with PvE content. Ashes is supposed to have top end PvE content.

Third, aside from RMT, the biggest issue with Archeage is the lack of movement in the games meta. You will still see more Darkrunners and Daggerspells in that game than any other class - 6 years after launch. Players are too scared to shift from the meta (or to group up with people that shift from the meta), and so that meta is essentially stagnant.

Lastly, not only does Ashes offer PvE content, but that PvE content is set to offer rewards based on your perfromance, yet without a combat tracker will not offer a way to monitor that performance. This is obviously a poor situation to put players in - if you are rewarded based on any factor, you should be able to assess how well you are doing in that specific factor.

As to the difference between Archeage and WoW, first of all, I suggest you play other games.

There absolutely is a difference in the level of toxicity between players in those games. Thing is, that isn't due to combat trackers, it is due to teh games design.

If you spend some time playing a game like EQ, EQ2 or Rift, you will see an even greater difference in the way players interact with each other. In those three games, you will see players use combat trackers as much as in WoW, but you will also see players treat each other with even more respect than in any other game.

This is because the game treats it's players with respect, and so players treat each other with respect.

If you play WoW, you have the ability to form groups automatically. Who the others in your group are don't matter, and so you don't need to treat them as anything other than a means for you to get in to the content in question. This doesn't foster players treating each other with respect.

Archeage has this as well, with content like BR/GR/MM/Halcy having groups automatically form - which is where the bulk of players play that game. If you are playing either game at a step above this basiclevel, then you start to get in to players treating each other with a bit more respect - top end players in WoW don't treat each other as disposable as lower levels treat each other (though not a whole lot better, to be honest), and in Archeage, players that are more focused on the top end guild activities rather than the above mentioned community content will find themselves being treated with more respect from their peers.

This is nothing at all to do with combat trackers, even if it may seem to be the case on the surface (especially if these are the only games you have played). All it takes to see how this is not the case is to play a game with high combat tracker use, and high player respect.

As soon as you play a game like this, you quickly see how ludicrous this notion is.

Child Item