I hope there will be no Class- Subclass combinations that miss out on everything. It would be pretty screw up the fun to level a char to 20-30, only to find out later that your class choices are worthless in group pvp/pve content.
I had to reroll enough in WoW due to bad luck with mainchar choices and I want to avoid this cure in this very promising fresh MMORPG world.
The good news is racial augments aren't the same as WoW Racial traits. This means you wont have to reroll due to the racial augments not completing a meta build. One less meta aspect makes the prospect easier to swallow.
Meta builds may fit for one server but may not be possible on another due to the way nodes develop and how augments will be earnt. When IS say they want to make a decent MMO I think they understand how pathetic meta gameplay is. Why go to the trouble of building a full game if only a fraction will be played?
The good news is racial augments aren't the same as WoW Racial traits. This means you wont have to reroll due to the racial augments not completing a meta build. One less meta aspect makes the prospect easier to swallow.
Meta builds may fit for one server but may not be possible on another due to the way nodes develop and how augments will be earnt. When IS say they want to make a decent MMO I think they understand how pathetic meta gameplay is. Why go to the trouble of building a full game if only a fraction will be played?
Seems legit due to thier own exp. with mmos they will be able to minimise meta gameplay as much as possible.
What they have yet shown is so good, that I think they can be trusted to succeed with thier ambition to finalise a masterpiece of that scale.
Before I say anything else, I want to make sure people understand that I know I come off as cold and more aggressive in text, and I apologize for that. This thread is super intriguing for me, in part because I am struggling to understand the OP's perspective that many others seem to share. At the end of the day I want to try to understand it even if I don't agree.
A meta forms when people who care about being competitive determine what works best. That's it. No amount of overdesign or underdesign is going to change that.
Imagine you can't respec talents at all and can only change gear in town. Will there be a meta? Yes, because people who want to have the highest potential will reroll if they have to.
Imagine there are 150 heroes to choose from in a MOBA with a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses. Will there be a meta? Yes, of course, because some of those strengths, when combined, will be more beneficial and offset more weaknesses than others.
Imagine you have 3 asymmetric factions in an RTS, will a meta develop between each matchup? Yes of course, because a strength against one faction might be a weakness against another.
In Guild Wars 2, WvW, multiple metas formed for different approaches to the same experience. Are you solo roaming? You need to be strong in 1v1, highly mobile to evade groups, and ideally able to easily solo camps. Who wins that race? Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors, some iterations of Ranger, Ele, and a few other choice specs work OK in some regards but can't really escape, like condi Necro.
How about large scale fights? You hit the GWEN comps: Guardian, Warrior, Ele, Necro. Do Thieves and Mesmers thrive in large scale? No, if only because of their toolset.
So imo, what happens in AoC? People do what they think is best at first for the type of content, then it refines over time. Certain primary/secondary combos will just do better in those battles for various roles and you'll start to see more, et voila, a meta forms.
Obfuscating information will slow the process but nothing will stop it because it isn't something you design against. If you play another person in Mortal Kombat 11 20 times in a row, by game 5 a meta will start to form between you two, and if you keep the same characters, by game 20 your fights will look NOTHING like they did in game 2.
What is it people actually don't want? To feel like they have to conform? I feel you. I roamed in GW2 WvW as a Power Necro and it was an uphill struggle against all the meta builds.
Here's the key: find others who are ok with your playstyle and you'll be fine. Don't worry about devs trying to solve the meta problem because they actually can't. You have the power to define your social environment, so do it, and you don't have to worry about the meta.
And if you DO want to be competitive at a high level, you'll have to accept some hard truths. That's a tiny percentage of people though.
Competetive PvP on high level is not for me anyway. There will always be a pro meta, on that you are right. I think the ppl worry about the classic MMO Andy, who just wants to get loose in the world. If there is a "casual meta" I believe it can be avoided due to much less impact on the game.
Exept you play WoW and the devs render your class useless because the fanboys pay monthly and in the cash shop anyway. xD
If AoC is robust and healthy we will hopefully see an ever evolving meta & probably server metas. If the game is deep and rich, we should look forward to new things being discovered over time and stale thoughts being refined. The problem with meta thought is that it is often not at the cutting edge of theory crafting and experimentation.
Seems the mantra in todays MMO scene is "There will always be a meta" If you listen close enough you can here the droning of a thousand jaded zombies repeating "there will always be a meta, there will always be a meta". But does that have to be true?
If you think over complicating gear and talents will do the trick, you're wrong.
The meta killer is.... Class, and Racial resistances and not being able to change specs at the drop of a hat to be more effective against another player(PVP) or a raid boss(PVE).
Straight up there will be a Meta b/c there's just always going to be certain classes/builds that outperform in specific parts of the game.
The goal shouldn't be to "kill" a meta. It's to carefully track what's being played where, how, and why and making adjustments based on that data. Rotating the meta so everyone eventually gets their time to truly shine is honestly the best way to go about it and if that rotation happens faster than it takes to completely level, gear, and learn a new character then no one's going to feel outright punished for their build as they'll feel confident that it'll soon be their turn to top charts even if that means being mid-range for a short period.
What's bad about WoW's Meta is that it will stagnate for anywhere from 3-6 months if not longer. Plenty of people have had their favorite spec completely bricked in higher levels of play for nearly an entire expansion (or two) due to Blizzard dragging it's feet when it comes to making even relatively simple number adjustments.
If I said something that you disagree w/ feel free to say so here.
The goal shouldn't be to "kill" a meta. It's to carefully track what's being played where, how, and why and making adjustments based on that data. Rotating the meta so everyone eventually gets their time to truly shine is honestly the best way to go about it and if that rotation happens faster than it takes to completely level, gear, and learn a new character then no one's going to feel outright punished for their build as they'll feel confident that it'll soon be their turn to top charts even if that means being mid-range for a short period.
What's bad about WoW's Meta is that it will stagnate for anywhere from 3-6 months if not longer. Plenty of people have had their favorite spec completely bricked in higher levels of play for nearly an entire expansion (or two) due to Blizzard dragging it's feet when it comes to making even relatively simple number adjustments.
Thats also a solution. In WoW you are sometimes the worst class for an entire expansion. Like Feral Druids in BFA. And in the prepatch to Shadowlands they are also the buttom of the DPS meters. Blizzard is doing like nothing for class balance.
Not being punished for a specific class choice is the core here. When they can make it that every class is somehow useful in the casual and semi hardcore scene (excluding the hardcore pros and the top-top-top guilds) it will be ok.
Comments
I had to reroll enough in WoW due to bad luck with mainchar choices and I want to avoid this cure in this very promising fresh MMORPG world.
Meta builds may fit for one server but may not be possible on another due to the way nodes develop and how augments will be earnt. When IS say they want to make a decent MMO I think they understand how pathetic meta gameplay is. Why go to the trouble of building a full game if only a fraction will be played?
Seems legit
What they have yet shown is so good, that I think they can be trusted to succeed with thier ambition to finalise a masterpiece of that scale.
Alright, with that said:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming
A meta forms when people who care about being competitive determine what works best. That's it. No amount of overdesign or underdesign is going to change that.
Imagine you can't respec talents at all and can only change gear in town. Will there be a meta? Yes, because people who want to have the highest potential will reroll if they have to.
Imagine there are 150 heroes to choose from in a MOBA with a wide variety of strengths and weaknesses. Will there be a meta? Yes, of course, because some of those strengths, when combined, will be more beneficial and offset more weaknesses than others.
Imagine you have 3 asymmetric factions in an RTS, will a meta develop between each matchup? Yes of course, because a strength against one faction might be a weakness against another.
In Guild Wars 2, WvW, multiple metas formed for different approaches to the same experience. Are you solo roaming? You need to be strong in 1v1, highly mobile to evade groups, and ideally able to easily solo camps. Who wins that race? Thieves, Mesmers, Warriors, some iterations of Ranger, Ele, and a few other choice specs work OK in some regards but can't really escape, like condi Necro.
How about large scale fights? You hit the GWEN comps: Guardian, Warrior, Ele, Necro. Do Thieves and Mesmers thrive in large scale? No, if only because of their toolset.
So imo, what happens in AoC? People do what they think is best at first for the type of content, then it refines over time. Certain primary/secondary combos will just do better in those battles for various roles and you'll start to see more, et voila, a meta forms.
Obfuscating information will slow the process but nothing will stop it because it isn't something you design against. If you play another person in Mortal Kombat 11 20 times in a row, by game 5 a meta will start to form between you two, and if you keep the same characters, by game 20 your fights will look NOTHING like they did in game 2.
What is it people actually don't want? To feel like they have to conform? I feel you. I roamed in GW2 WvW as a Power Necro and it was an uphill struggle against all the meta builds.
Here's the key: find others who are ok with your playstyle and you'll be fine. Don't worry about devs trying to solve the meta problem because they actually can't. You have the power to define your social environment, so do it, and you don't have to worry about the meta.
And if you DO want to be competitive at a high level, you'll have to accept some hard truths. That's a tiny percentage of people though.
Exept you play WoW and the devs render your class useless because the fanboys pay monthly and in the cash shop anyway. xD
Straight up there will be a Meta b/c there's just always going to be certain classes/builds that outperform in specific parts of the game.
The goal shouldn't be to "kill" a meta. It's to carefully track what's being played where, how, and why and making adjustments based on that data. Rotating the meta so everyone eventually gets their time to truly shine is honestly the best way to go about it and if that rotation happens faster than it takes to completely level, gear, and learn a new character then no one's going to feel outright punished for their build as they'll feel confident that it'll soon be their turn to top charts even if that means being mid-range for a short period.
What's bad about WoW's Meta is that it will stagnate for anywhere from 3-6 months if not longer. Plenty of people have had their favorite spec completely bricked in higher levels of play for nearly an entire expansion (or two) due to Blizzard dragging it's feet when it comes to making even relatively simple number adjustments.
Thats also a solution. In WoW you are sometimes the worst class for an entire expansion. Like Feral Druids in BFA. And in the prepatch to Shadowlands they are also the buttom of the DPS meters. Blizzard is doing like nothing for class balance.
Not being punished for a specific class choice is the core here. When they can make it that every class is somehow useful in the casual and semi hardcore scene (excluding the hardcore pros and the top-top-top guilds) it will be ok.