Stevens reply on family summoning at Ashes Pathfinders #84

Sounds great how he explained its "anti-cheat" mechanic. 30sec-1min cast time for the summon and a 30min CD on the ability. But, anyone else concerned how easy its to chain it? For 10 people it still means 5 people needs to travel, but if everyone has chained their summon to 1 more player, its still only 5 needing traveling. Boosting your raid/gank/war party from 5 to 10 in 1min, they can then summon 5 more people and so on. Adding a 30min CD on the ability for the person being summoned aswell, would solve this no? Or add a reagent cost to the summon. Or some kind of PvP debuff on whoever is summoned. Just abit worried about shock PvP partys with this mechanic.

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Tyrantor

Noaani wrote: »

Tyrantor wrote: »

I'll ask you again can you not wait to see how it works before explaining to the rest of us why it's not needed?

The reverse is true.

It is easier to add in a QoL feature to an existing game that proves to need it than it is to remove a QoL feature from a game that proves to be a negative.

Once in the live game, it will not be taken out. Therefore, if a wait and see approach is to be taken, that approach should be from the perspective of "wait and see if it is needed, as then we could add it" rather than "add it anyway, and if it is a negative we are all screwed".

So sure, I totally agree with the premise of your statement that we should want to see if the game needs it - you are just coming at that from the wrong direction.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. The inconvenience it would cause for casual players by causing massive travel/down time to group with their friends would absolutely ruin the game. Think about the day in age we live in - everything in your life is almost instantaneously available to you. The concept of "run 30+ minutes to play with your friends because" isn't something that peoples pre-programmed brains of the 2020's and beyond are going to be able to process.

Noaani

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Obviously on a developed server there will be multiple major bosses and dungeons available within a given 24 hour period.

Steven has said he expects each server to have a total of 12 - 15 such spawns at any given point. If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game), then that means 2 per day, as a general, rough average.

That was several assumptions on systems.

No, it was going over all possible systems taht could be used to perform one function (well, otehr than forced spawning).

Other than forced spawning, encounters can either be spawned at a specific time, or they can spawn in a specific window of time. The only variation to this is that both of these can be either based on set clocks, or based on the last time the encounter was killed.

I wasn't making assumptions as to what the game would do, I was pointing out the possible mechanics they could use to spawn encounters, and stating what top end guilds would do for each spawn type (as in, what I have done in past games when each spawn type is used).

If the spawn timer is a set time, we will simply port in 2 or 3 minutes before it is due to spawn. Other guilds may take the time to run there, and good for them - they are wasting a lot of time that we are not though, and will soon see the value in porting in.

If the spawn is within a window of time, we will have a spotter of some sort to tell when the encounter spawns. Since windows like this are usually open for several days, it isn't really concievable that a guild will wait at the spawn location for that period of time, thus the first guild to realise the encounter is up, get to it and get the kill is obviously going to be the one that gets the rewards. It should be obvious that the guild with the porting network will always get this over the guild without it.

There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20]
Castle sieges.[20]
Node sieges.[20]
Legendary world boss spawns.[20]
Monster coin events.[21]
Dungeon opportunities.[21]

This comment was made in relation to events that put your node at risk. It is not appropriate in and of itself to apply it to other events.

The raids we are talking about here are not the encounters that attack nodes - this is a ket thing for you to be aware of.

I don't know if you played Rift, but it is as good of an analogy as any other game. The game had the titular rifts that spawned events that any and all could participate in. These events often cumulated in a boss encounter. The game also had instanced raid zones, which were not free for all to participate in - they were content for guilds.

Ashes is similar (though not exactly the same) as this. There are open world events that are there for all to participate in. These events absolutely will be things that are notified, and that is what Steven was talking about when he mentioned the things listed above. However, there will also be other raid content, content that is designed and intended primarily for guilds - and this is the content I am talking about.

These two types of content should not be confused with each other.

Summon abuse may not be getting much of an advantage at collecting purchases.

The flight paths you are talking about seem to again suggest you have ignored the details.

Flight paths are the first thing here, and there are three distinct reasons why this is not a valid point to use in attempting to say that a summons will not be an effective tool in trade.

The first reason is that flight paths may well be able to take you from one node to another within a region, but that isn't of much value, and again is not what I am talking about. I am talking about taking finished products to a different metropolis, a different region, and these flight paths do not help much with that.

The second is that, even if they did, you still have the time you need to wait while actually travelling, whereas a teleport is instant, and in this particilar exploit, it is all about the time it saves - so even if flight paths took you directly from metropolis to metropolis, you still need to spend the time.

The third thing is that these need to be built by players. They are not a guaranteed feature.

Then you have teleportation between scientific metropolis and it's vassals. This is similar to the flight paths above, and has two of the same drawbacks, plus one if it's own. This system still needs to be build, and still only teleports you within the one region - and the other drawback is that it only applies to scientific metropolis nodes.

Then you have the airship between scientific metropolis nodes, which again needs to be built. It requires two scientific nodes at metropolis stage (which the bulk of servers will not have at any given time), and also still has that travel time aspect to it. It does, however, take you to a different region.

These things will not prevent the usefulness of a family summons system to a player that trades in finished goods.

Even if they did, these things are all temporary. Ifa metropolis is successfully sieged, that means all of that transport is gone. If that is what all other merchants were relying on to get their products to other metropolis nodes, I know I'm going to have a month or so of great sales as while they are waiting for the new metropolis to be leveled up so that flgiht paths can be bought back online, all I need to do is move one character to what ever node has taken over as the market hub and I'm good to go again.

FuryBladeborne

Noaani wrote: »

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Obviously on a developed server there will be multiple major bosses and dungeons available within a given 24 hour period.

Steven has said he expects each server to have a total of 12 - 15 such spawns at any given point. If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game), then that means 2 per day, as a general, rough average.

A 24 hour schedule in GW2 spawns every world boss and major boss.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_boss

We do not know the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.

Noaani wrote: »

There will be global (server-wide) announcements/notifications of important events.[20]
Legendary world boss spawns.[20]
Dungeon opportunities.[21]
This comment was made in relation to events that put your node at risk. It is not appropriate in and of itself to apply it to other events.

The raids we are talking about here are not the encounters that attack nodes - this is a ket thing for you to be aware of.

I went ahead and listened to the clip. In spite of dungeons and legendary bosses being listed I will just agree that we do not know how we will find out about such events; and, that teleporting to them may be a game breaking advantage in relation to such spawns.

In relation to faster travel and caravans, my point was that there are already at least several systems intended for the game that remove or greatly reduce risk and time required for transporting goods. The availability of such systems will depend on world development and exactly where you need things to go.

A player that chooses to may be able to organize a personal pathing for buying / selling based around preferred hunting or grinding areas so that goods can be moved through a combination of faster travel and / or alts with little effort or risk. Riding on a flight path does not require being at the keyboard and may be safe. Even if flying travel can be raided, there's are not many flying mounts.

All I am trying to say is that there are systems in the game which accomplish much of the benefit of family summons over walking (in terms of reduced travel time and reduced risk) even if those systems are not as good as an instant teleport. In fact, using such systems could even allow a player to easily play with friends or quickly meet up for a dungeon run. You know, the things they would be giving up in favor of exploiting at every possible moment.

In regards to teleporting materials between regions using the summon, you won't be. Finished goods could be as that could be equipped gear and currently is not blocked even if the gear is in your inventory. However, crafting materials, processed goods, and certificates will have to be dropped before a summon can be used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTI_4jq04k&t=442s
(Restrictions explained at 7 minutes)

From what I understand, Steven's intent is to test family summoning in Alpha 2 under the current system of a 30 minute cooldown and the other restrictions that IS has presented. After that, adjustments or removal will be made. These threads are important so that IS can have a list of problems and potential solutions ready to go for testing.

It has been interesting but I think that I am done as I have contributed all that I think I wish to.

Noaani

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

We do not know the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.

I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.

GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.

In spite of dungeons and legendary bosses being listed

The bosses listed weremonster coin event bosses, and things of that nature. Again, things that will put your node at risk.

In terms of dungeons, there was a comment a long time ago about there being a notification when a new dungeon opens up - not specifically when an individual boss within that dungeon spawns.

While I agree I am making some assumptions on the type of content in Ashes, they are assumptions based on many years of listening to comments in order to understand the type of content Steven wants in the game - rather than just saying "well, it could be like that game over there" when that game over there suits the particular discussion.

Basically, rather than being assumptions based on nothing, the assumptions I am making (while still assumptions) are based on a foundation of understanding of the game.

In regards to teleporting materials between regions using the summon, you won't be.

This statement makes me think you have no idea what we are discussing.

I didn't say raw materials can be transported between metropolis nodes with the summons system. Actually, if you go back through these many threads on this topic, I was among the first that pointed out that the family summons system would ruin the need for caravans - which was said before they added in the cavet that you couldn't use the summons if you had raw materials in your inventory. This restriction was added to the summons (or at least, was first mentioned) a few days later.

This is why I have been saying all this time that it is finished products that are the real issue here - and there is absolutely no way Intrepid can prevent the passage of finished products via this summons.

I am also not sure you understand my issue with the summons in regards to caravans. The issue isn't about getting materials around the world faster (I don't think this would happen, as caravans hold 100 times what a players inventory holds). My issue there is that the caravan system is designed around the notion that players can't spot a caravan moving, form a group up and then attack it. They need to either be out hunting them (or ambushing them), need to luck on to one while out travelling with friends, or need to attempt to gather players in the general area to assist in taking on the caravan. As soon as the game makes it possibel for players to form up their friends from various locations, gather together and then take on the caravan, the entire system starts breaking down.

exploiting

We are not discussing an exploit here.

To be very clear, an exploit in computer terms is "an action that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software". Nothing at all that I have suggested is an exploit. There is no bug or vulnerability in the software, and the results are 100% anticipated - even if not intended.

This may well be an abuse of a system, but what I am talking about is using the system as designed, for the exact purpose it was designed for, just with an intention that was not the design. Straight up not an exploit.

Fact is, with these discussions, if any of this is possible by the time the game launched, it is 100% on Intrepid if the summons is misused.

FuryBladeborne

Noaani wrote: »

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

We do not kno[quote="Noaani;c-259483"w the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.

I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.

GW2 is an MMORPG, we were talking about legendary bosses, it seems to be similar content. However, that didn't matter. The point was simply that such bosses can be on a schedule for a specific location; and, if that happens then guilds will not have an advantage to getting that boss due to family summoning.

Noaani wrote: »

...they are assumptions based on many years of listening to comments in order to understand the type of content Steven wants in the game - rather than just saying "well, it could be like that game over there" when that game over there suits the particular discussion.

First, you are comparing Ashes to other games as in this very post you said, "I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content"; and earlier in this thread, "If they spawn roughly weekly (which is reasonable, and on par with every other game)". Second, I have a kickstarter tag, it means that I have been here since 2017. Saying that your an expert is an attempt to create support for your argument with no evidence. Simply give reasoned arguments or cite what your stating and you won't need to rely on claiming to be an expert.

Noaani wrote: »

I didn't say raw materials can be transported between metropolis nodes with the summons system.

Ok. Sometimes I do read the entire massive threads that are generated in the forums, but I am not doing it here. I already attempted to quit with this thread. You stated material, so I went with it. I now understand that you know better.

Noaani wrote: »

We are not discussing an exploit here.

To be very clear, an exploit in computer terms is "an action that takes advantage of a bug or vulnerability to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior to occur on computer software". Nothing at all that I have suggested is an exploit. There is no bug or vulnerability in the software, and the results are 100% anticipated - even if not intended.

Not intended = unintended. So, it meets the definition of exploit that you provided.

So, I am definitely done. I just wrote all of these responses and almost none of had anything to do with the thread topic of whether family summoning should be in the game or how fix any related problems. In my view, this conversation is no longer productive.

Have a good one

Noaani

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

We do not kno[quote="Noaani;c-259483"w the spawn schedule in Ashes. If spawns are on a set timer at a known location, teleportation is not necessary to compete for them. If they are randomized, then teleportation is probably a game breaking advantage in this area.

I should have said that is on par with every other game with similar content.
GW2 content is not similar in any way to this type of content in Ashes - or at least not similar to what we know of it.

GW2 is an MMORPG, we were talking about legendary bosses, it seems to be similar content. However, that didn't matter. The point was simply that such bosses can be on a schedule for a specific location; and, if that happens then guilds will not have an advantage to getting that boss due to family summoning.

This is like saying all crafting in MMO's is the same - which is not at all true.

The premise of Ashes and GW2 are vastly different.

First, you are comparing it to other games to provide examples or support for what can be. "and on par with every other game"; and, "every other game with similar content". Second, I have a kickstarter tag, it means that I have been here since 2017. Saying that your an expert is an attempt to create support for your argument with no evidence. Simply give reasoned arguments or cite what your stating and you won't need to rely on such weak efforts.

I don't talk about what can be - as that includes everything from WoW to Crowfall.

I am talking about what we know of what Steven wants Ashes to be, and he has talked about different types of raids. He has talked about how there will be encounters that spawn and attack nodes, and that everyone is able to participate in this. This type of content is not totally dissimilar to the boss spawns in GW2 - where essentially everyone present can take part, and everyone present gets rewards (this is how it was when I last played GW2, at least).

While I don't expect it to be the case, this type of content could have a daily spawn schedule.

However, it is not the type of content I am talking about.

Rather that content where people work together and all get rewards (which are the encounters Steven was talking about in regards to notifications), I am talking about encounters that are geared towards individual guilds, where only one raid gets the reward. SInce this is different content with different goals to anything in GW2, what happens in that game with their content is not transferrable to this type of content in any other game.

Since the idea is for guilds to fight over it, it simply can not be something that spawns daily. If it spawns daily, then it will be far too common for guilds to care about fighting over. So, this daily spawn timer that you are talking about here straight up DOES NOT WORK for the type of content we are talking about - as I said about 4 posts ago, and you refuse to understand simply because a game has daily spawns with a totally different content type that happens to have a similar name.

Again, a daily spawn simply can not work for a type of content that guilds are supposed to fight over, and that is exactly the type of content that I am talking about. Sure, they could develop it, there is nothing technical to stop them from doing that. The thing is, if they do that, the encounters will be so common that players won't see the need to fight over them, and so won't.

Now, if you want to go on about how a 24 hour spawn timer works for a different type of content with a different goal in mind that is in a different game, then go for it - I am not sure why you would want to talk about that though.

Isn't not intended equal to unintended?

Yes it is.

The outcome here absolutely is unintended by Intrepid - but as I said, that doesn't make it an exploit. In order to be an exploit, the user needs to take advantage of a bug or vulnerability in order to cause unintended or unanticipated behavior.

You seem to have latched on to the last part of that - the need for there to be unintended or unanticipated bahavior. This is something I am not disputing - and this wouldn't even be an abuse of a system if the results were intended and anticipated.

What you seem to have missed though, is the first part that is needed for something to be an exploit - the need for it to be a bug or vulnerability that people are taking advantage of. This is very clearly not the case here, we will be putting a system to use as it is designed to be used, with the exact outcome that the system should have. No bug, no vulnerability, no exploit.

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