Arena and Gear Equalization

I think gear should not matter.

Build Creativity
1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
2. Team Compositions
3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

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Comments

Damokles

I think that gearing should be a thing in PvP arenas. You see what happens if not in WoW currently.

daveywavey

If different gear has different stats/effects, then it would add further diversity to the playstyles and give even more different ideas.

Altodor

Damokles wrote: »

I think that gearing should be a thing in PvP arenas. You see what happens if not in WoW currently.

Why do you think it should matter in PvP arenas

Altodor

daveywavey wrote: »

If different gear has different stats/effects, then it would add further diversity to the playstyles and give even more different ideas.

So I dont think the different stats on gear matters if a system where you allocate points into desired stats is available. It allows for creativity in that aspect.

The effects is something that I didnt give much too. A solution could be to provide a variety of effects through a system of blessing/buffs. Added variables is fun but Im not too worried if they cant bother to do it. It can be replaced with a system that doesnt need to be involved with gear

Sathrago

This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong. This is not an fps and not even mobas do this sort of thing.

Gearing up is one of the most impactful and rewarding parts of an MMO. Removing that aspect to cater to, or specifically only for, arenas is not going to work out well. The game is being designed for a base team of 8 players and up for large group pvp.

Now if you strictly want to make this an arena only thing I feel you are asking too much for such a small part of the game. They would have to completely rebalance individual classes for arena play to give you that sense of "fairness". Otherwise there will be combinations that completely wipe the floor with others making most other combinations obsolete.

Ultimately, removing gear as a factor would neuter any attempt to play off-meta builds that require specific types of stats at high levels to be competitive.

Damokles

Altodor wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

I think that gearing should be a thing in PvP arenas. You see what happens if not in WoW currently.

Why do you think it should matter in PvP arenas

It is as much part of PvP as it is a part of PvE. You get rewarded with better gear and that helps you fight others at the same level.
And your system would make arena PvP feel as if it was totally parted from the whole other PvX world.
I dont think, that Steven would give Arena players that much of a special place if raids dont get that.

I mean, hell, we could just as well say that all instanced raids give you the ability to get different stats and specific tree compositions. Do you see where I go here? It would set a precedent for such whishes from the community, and that would ruin Ashes.

Never set a precedent that could come back to haunt you.

Talents

Disagree. I love arenas but I absolutely hate games that equalise your stats in it. Completely ruins that part of the game for me.

Altodor

Sathrago wrote: »

This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.

I tried to think about why this makes wanting equalized stats wrong I could only think that its wrong from a roleplay perspective. Just in case here is the solution. Pretend arena that the arena is a place to measure just skill and not gear score. We all blunt our blades and wear our desired basic armor. Then fight to see who is better.

Sathrago wrote: »

Gearing up is one of the most impactful and rewarding parts of an MMO.

Yeah I agree and it should stay out of an instanced area designed to measure skill. Not gear score.

Sathrago wrote: »

Now if you strictly want to make this an arena only thing I feel you are asking too much for such a small part of the game. They would have to completely rebalance individual classes for arena play to give you that sense of "fairness". Otherwise there will be combinations that completely wipe the floor with others making most other combinations obsolete.

I do want this stat allocation to be in place of gear. Its to not allow gear score to be the deciding factor in a fight. I dont want the game to be rebalanced for just arena. The way they are balancing it is fine. There might be some OP combinations so assuming there will be thats fine. The only thing that matters is that gear shouldnt be the deciding factor in a fight. Just those three points up there.

Sathrago wrote: »

Ultimately, removing gear as a factor would neuter any attempt to play off-meta builds that require specific types of stats at high levels to be competitive.

I dont think it would. What your saying is that gear should be the deciding factor for team comps that arent good. The only factor should be team comp, skill tree allocations, and stat allocation.

Hope this was constructive

Altodor

Damokles wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

I think that gearing should be a thing in PvP arenas. You see what happens if not in WoW currently.

Why do you think it should matter in PvP arenas

It is as much part of PvP as it is a part of PvE. You get rewarded with better gear and that helps you fight others at the same level.

I just dont think that gear should have a place in a setting where people are competing. At some point gear outweighs skill heavily and the players that have been progressing the most will have a clear cut advantage. To me that doesnt make sense if theres some of ranking system. You should get ranked in this instanced area base off of your skill. Just this part of the game though nowhere else. In the open world anything goes and your gear should benefit you.

Damokles wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

I think that gearing should be a thing in PvP arenas. You see what happens if not in WoW currently.

Why do you think it should matter in PvP arenas

I mean, hell, we could just as well say that all instanced raids give you the ability to get different stats and specific tree compositions. Do you see where I go here? It would set a precedent for such whishes from the community, and that would ruin Ashes.

Never set a precedent that could come back to haunt you.

The gear progression system works well in all other aspects of games except arena. I see arena as a way to measure skill and not gear progression. It works well hand in hand with other systems. But theres a ladder with rating. I mean just saying but IRL people got the same choice of weapons and armor for arena fights. Its all about skill.

Power progression through gear makes a lot more sense for challenging the dangerous monsters of Verra

daveywavey

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Altodor

daveywavey wrote: »

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

Altodor

Talents wrote: »

Disagree. I love arenas but I absolutely hate games that equalise your stats in it. Completely ruins that part of the game for me.

What specifically ruined your arena experience. How did they equalize stats. I always thought that bad balancing = not giving players options. Like bam all 100 stats yatayata

daveywavey

Altodor wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

Also, certain Classes aren't tailored to fighting 1v1, so they've tried to level the playing field.

I can see what you're after. You're trying to boil it down to skill vs skill. Depending on the armour buffs/boosts/effects, I think the two might be heavily linked. If you've designed a good build around your gear & weapons, then you'll want to use that.

Altodor

daveywavey wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

Also, certain Classes aren't tailored to fighting 1v1, so they've tried to level the playing field.

I can see what you're after. You're trying to boil it down to skill vs skill. Depending on the armour buffs/boosts/effects, I think the two might be heavily linked. If you've designed a good build around your gear & weapons, then you'll want to use that.

Its ok if the balancing isnt around arena. Things will be good and bad as usual. The way they are balancing it I think 5v5 will probably give way to a lot more creative team compositions and less super meta comps. But thats just a guess and another topic.

So the idea is to replicate what gear does through a stat allocation system. So if you had gear that focused on strength you would put points into strength. If you wanted to try out intelligence and reword your skill tree as well you could. Its all about removing the gear from being the deciding factor for performance.

I dont like the idea that newer players cant get into arena because they dont have good gear and get roflstomped. Or they cant climb the ladder because they get roflstomped.

Ravudha

Altodor wrote: »

I dont like the idea that newer players cant get into arena because they dont have good gear and get roflstomped. Or they cant climb the ladder because they get roflstomped.

Sounds like a perfect way to incentivise players to go out into the world and earn better gear.

If gear is equalised I'd be worried about a whole lot of players just playing arena with no reason to go out into the world.

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

This is all correct until you realize we are playing an MMORPG, making you wrong.

Totally agree.

Part of a build in any good MMO is the choices you make in regards to gear.

In a game like WoW that has a very linear structure for gear, it is understandable that some players may look at gear as being how far along a specific progression path a character is and has no real say as to how good the player is.

In good MMO's though, the gear you equip often says a lot about how good of a player you are. This is never more true than in an MMO with no class based item restrictions.

Good players equip gear that either compliments their strengths, or covers over some of their weaknesses. As such, gear is as important a part of your build - and as important a part of the creativity of that build - as where you allocate skill points, what skills you opt for and what augments you place on them.

Removing gear from the equation in arenas is stifling creativity in regards to builds, not encouraging it.

Warth

this is an mmo, not a moba nor a fps or fighting game. If you want equalized pvp, then play one of them.

The progression you have should matter in an mmo.

Hence disagreed

Warth

Altodor wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

incorrect. Its to eliminate the class balance. You still have a month-long grind to equip your champion with good gear for the election tournament.

Atama

I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC.

daveywavey

Atama wrote: »

I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

Ugh yeah. You perfect your build, and your next quest needs you to disguise as an enemy, where you suddenly have all of the enemy skills instead.....

Grrrrrrrrrr.......

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