Arena and Gear Equalization

I think gear should not matter.

Build Creativity
1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
2. Team Compositions
3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

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George_Black

No, this is an mmorpg, not a moba or fps.
Gear is part of the game.
If you want to compete on equal lv with people wearing better gear than you, put the effort in and get your self proper gear, there is no p2w

Tacualeon

I think this.
Give me this.
Because.

Damokles

daveywavey wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

Ugh yeah. You perfect your build, and your next quest needs you to disguise as an enemy, where you suddenly have all of the enemy skills instead.....

Grrrrrrrrrr.......

I like those quests tbh. xD

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

this is an mmo, not a moba nor a fps or fighting game. If you want equalized pvp, then play one of them.

The progression you have should matter in an mmo.

Hence disagreed

You got a lot of other places where you can use your gear for pvp where there is actual risk vs reward structures. Arena is a place for competing

Altodor

Tacualeon wrote: »

I think this.
Give me this.
Because.

Is this the structure I have with my argument? Is there a better way of writing this that im missing what do you think

Altodor

Atama wrote: »

I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC.

I and everyone else doesnt compare a parlor game to playing your class in an arena. I totally agree with what you mean but not when it comes to arena. IMO it is not a place to measure gear score its a place to measure skill and compete for fun. It should be a separate part of the game.

I have always thought there are a lot ways to use your progression in this game. All with a risk vs reward structure. Doesnt need to involve Arena when the reward part of it isnt a big deal. Power stones at the end of you season wont be a big reason to grind Arena's all day. Thats another topic though I think

Warth

Interestingly enough nobody agreed with you this far Alto.
You still just try to push your opinion even though the majority of the people responding to you is against it.

Be that as it may, I personally was one of the people who have been against an instanced arena from the day they announced it. In my opinion, instanced arenas are a themepark feature that don't belong into an open world PvX game.

Either way, I came to accept it knowing that,

there is no real/relevant progression achieved through playing the instanced content and the fact that
in order to compete there players are pushed out into the open world to gear.

This provides the PvP Only / Arena community a place to compete within the game, while also forcing them to take part in the open world nature of the game. Forcing them to venture into the open world to get the gear makes sure of that. I don't think segregated PvP or PvE communities within the game should be a thing unless they are being tied into the core aspect of the game: The open world.

I understand why some Arena-only players don't like that, but then it simply might not be the game you are truely looking for. You could look into Zeal for that, which is pretty much an mmo-lite, focusing on balanced, instanced Arenas, Battlegrounds and Dungeons. without "annoying leveling and progressions" - just pure competition with the character building aspects of an MMO

Tyrantor

Altodor wrote: »

I think gear should not matter.

Build Creativity
1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
2. Team Compositions
3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

Atama

Altodor wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

I absolutely hate when I'm playing an MMO, improving my gear and developing a solid build for my character, getting a playstyle I enjoy and work on perfecting... Then I do a quest or game mode that has me play as something unrelated to my character where all my accomplishments mean nothing. Such as controlling a different kind of character temporarily or playing a mode where none of that matters. It sucks and I try to avoid it.

If arenas worked that way, you'd bet I would avoid them. If you want a PvP where skill alone matters, that's what tavern games will do for you in AoC.

I and everyone else doesnt compare a parlor game to playing your class in an arena. I totally agree with what you mean but not when it comes to arena. IMO it is not a place to measure gear score its a place to measure skill and compete for fun. It should be a separate part of the game.

I have always thought there are a lot ways to use your progression in this game. All with a risk vs reward structure. Doesnt need to involve Arena when the reward part of it isnt a big deal. Power stones at the end of you season wont be a big reason to grind Arena's all day. Thats another topic though I think

The problem is that this is only your opinion and the rest of the community does not share it. Oh well.

Nagash

Tyrantor wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

I think gear should not matter.

Build Creativity
1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
2. Team Compositions
3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

I know want a bare-knuckle fight in the mmo with a fighting game announcer ^^

Maezriel

I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.

That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

Sathrago

Maezriel wrote: »

I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.

That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

You hit the nail on the head. This is the reason why we say "This is an MMO gear should matter". Its the short version of what you just said. We do not want them to feel like they need to balance around arenas because all of a sudden some classes are base-line better than others due to no gap in gear. If a patch of grass is cut, it makes it easier to see the fastest growing blade. Basically what I am saying is, the more differences you remove from an equation the more prominent each variable becomes.

If there is no gear difference, its class choice. if its not class choice its augment choice. If its not augment choice its racial difference. If it's not racial difference, its weapon choice. We ultimately end up playing gray blobs that all deal 1 damage and every game will end in a tie. This cycles back into the initial statement of: This is an MMO gear should matter. If we have enough variables that players can use to their advantage and blur the line between skill, you allow people that probably wouldn't do arena to participate in it and you encourage arena players to get out and experience the open world.

George_Black

Maezriel wrote: »

I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

You can still make "gear matter" in a way that @Altodor is suggesting by allowing players to build different sets. Just give equal access to everyone in the Arena so that a fight is dictated by knowledge and skill of your class and isn't just decided b/c someone no-life ground out a currency to buy a set that just 1-shots you.

That said, I don't actually think I want Arena's to be a focus of the game. I'm all for it being a small side game, but I actually strongly dislike that there's already 1v1 and 3v3 options and a ladder b/c every game I've played that's tried to cater to both PvE and PvP play has spectacularly failed at it.

At least in AoC there likely won't be a clear distinction between a PvE and PvP build due to there always being a present danger of encountering both, but as soon as you remove one from the equation degenerate metas form that force the devs to make changes that will affect the other side.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Back in 2005 I thought the same thing the OP is asking for.

"What if gear didnt matter?! I'd show all these people my sKiLl. "

And then I realize how stupid it is to want to compete for high stakes with people in L2 olympiad that had spent time and effort dealing with PvE challenges, PvP ambushes, territory control, crafting and organizing whole guilds, with my lazy no gear character that I didnt put the effort to get proper gear, but I was fvcking around all day.

How about no? It's not us wanting to smash lower gear people, it's you having the nerve to demand that a part of the mmo genre goes out of the window because you delude yourselves thinking that you have more skill than others.

Not gonna happen. Your only hope is if military node leader selection goes ahead with that champion system IS talked about earlier this year.

I for one want to see people like a friend of mine beating higher geared people with his lower geared character

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znekmHmfq2E

Underlevelled, undergeared, and the higher lv dude cheated. My guy still won. One of the many suchs fights of a bygone pvp era.
(And before anyone says sk was op in l2, there was a fight of my mate at 66 lv skbeating a 72 lv sk. Kav was the name.

Git gud sons. Stop asking for benefits. Enough with the handholding everybody gets a trophy mmos.

Sov54

Maezriel wrote: »

I feel the "This is an MMO gear should matter," Is mostly people trying not to outright say "I want to smash the teeth in of those I vastly outgear regardless of my actual skill."

I won't have the time to tryhard this time, but still support the "Gear should matter" argument.

As @Sathrago said, I still prefer to get stomped by a not PVP-optimized guy who has put the time and effort in the open world to grow his character, than by a min/maxer cookie-cutter-spec exploiter that wants to PWN NOOBZ with no effort put in the open world.

George_Black

Btw personally I found it annoying that I could jump into BGs without gear in some mmos, and still fight.

"Whats the point of gearing up..."
Non stop I was thinking that.
"Whats the point when everything is optional? What are the goals? RP pve?"

Maezriel

And this is why I don't think Arena should be anything more than a side game w/ no official ladder or rewards.

I see both sides of the argument and right now these forums are full of old school masochists MMO players, but there's no guarantee that'll remain the norm as the game grows.

There's a solid chance that as people play Arena's that it'll become a greater and greater focus...which leads to exactly what I said about the devs balancing one gamemode that's wholly separate from all the rest.

If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.

Warth

sounds more like some people here want to

Maezriel wrote: »

If you want the world of Verra to be the primary content then there shouldn't be ladders and rewards for playing a mode that completely takes you outside of the world. Those rewards makes it far too tempting for people to want to no-life Arena's which'll cause them to want balance changes to the content they interact w/ the most.

you got it. There shouldn't be an instanced arena in the first place.

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

So, you're wanting it to be more like the Militaristic Node election process, where players take control of a "champion", and fight using that. Player gear and equipment doesn't have any effect there, cos it's not the "Player" character fighting.

Yeah kinda they are doing that so skill is reflected better I think

incorrect. Its to eliminate the class balance. You still have a month-long grind to equip your champion with good gear for the election tournament.

Yeah that makes sense. Really good system if you ask me

Altodor

Warth wrote: »

Interestingly enough nobody agreed with you this far Alto.
You still just try to push your opinion even though the majority of the people responding to you is against it.

Be that as it may, I personally was one of the people who have been against an instanced arena from the day they announced it. In my opinion, instanced arenas are a themepark feature that don't belong into an open world PvX game.

Either way, I came to accept it knowing that,
there is no real/relevant progression achieved through playing the instanced content and the fact that

in order to compete there players are pushed out into the open world to gear.

This provides the PvP Only / Arena community a place to compete within the game, while also forcing them to take part in the open world nature of the game. Forcing them to venture into the open world to get the gear makes sure of that. I don't think segregated PvP or PvE communities within the game should be a thing unless they are being tied into the core aspect of the game: The open world.

I understand why some Arena-only players don't like that, but then it simply might not be the game you are truely looking for. You could look into Zeal for that, which is pretty much an mmo-lite, focusing on balanced, instanced Arenas, Battlegrounds and Dungeons. without "annoying leveling and progressions" - just pure competition with the character building aspects of an MMO

Hey Warth. Everyone you said makes sense to me thanks for writing.

Now im more inclined to think about people joining the game and just doing arena hurting the open world which is really what this game is all about. But I would still like arena to be a competitive place for team vs team content and not reflect gear score. I dont care as much about my point since I rather have the rest of the PvP have more players in them.

So maybe a solution would be making arena only for max level. You could experience most of the game through the long leveling process and if that doesnt filter out people who only want arena I dont know what will. The vision is 225 hours to reach max level.

Also I have thought about these points but I thought that the open world PvP would be engaging enough to want to earn gear and do better. Caravan PvP seems like a good money maker and popular amongst players and the sieging stuff is so fun to think about I would really like to gear for that stuff.

I wanna have my cake and eat it too. PvP with a purpose and PvP in a competitive setting. Maybe theres a way to achieve that I havent though about a perfect idea

Altodor

Tyrantor wrote: »

Altodor wrote: »

I think gear should not matter.

Build Creativity
1. Give us all base stats and points to allocate into these stats. This replaces gear and allows flexibility in character builds.
2. Team Compositions
3. Personal Skill Tree Point Allocation

These are the only things that should matter in a ranked arena ladder. They allow for an equal playing field and enough creativity to have fun with different ideas.

This is an MMO not a console fighter game. Gear should matter.

I just feel like it shouldnt matter in a competitive setting like the arena where rewards dont matter anyways. Im thinking that the rest of the game is alluring enough to not keep you in there forever. I wanted the game to be like 40 60 arena - rest of game or maybe 30 70.

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