Game controllers are actually SUPERIOR to keyboard and mouse

Steven has said controller support will be something that is added close to launch, just as an afterthought you know because it's not important.... and that is founded on what is probably the widest spread piece of group think idiocy that plagues all of computer gaming.

The deeply engrained belief that MMO players, and basically all computer gamers, seems to have in their head that the keyboard and mouse is the be-all-end-all-far-superior-to-controllers and there is just no argument to be made, and that is just GROSSLY IGNORANT and FLAT OUT WRONG.

I admit that aiming with a mouse is definitely superior to dual-analog stick controller aiming for split-second-reaction aiming, but that is only relevant to FPS games and literally COMPLETEL irrelevant for an MMO.

Let me start with literally the ONLY argument people ever have in favor for it: Controllers just has far fewer buttons than a keyboard....

#1 - No that's not NECESSARILY true. The typical big 3 controllers may only have about 16-18 buttons depending how you're counting, but that doesn't mean there aren't OTHER controllers out there with more buttons on them and that controllers couldn't be made with potentially AS MANY BUTTONS AS YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT.

#2 - You can't just look at the number of buttons something has, you have to consider how many buttons you can actually USE, and that you can actually use WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY CONTROLLING BOTH YOUR CHARACTER AND THE CAMERA (and potentially also a target) while in actual COMBAT.

The greatest weakness people seem to overlook about the keyboard is that your WASD MOVEMENT requires 3 to 4 fingers, that leaves only your pinky and thumb free to actually hit any other buttons!

Compare that to the dual analog stick, you are using only your THUMB to control character movement. A single finger.

And then think about your other hand, the mouse, your dedicating your ENTIRE HAND to be used ONLY for controlling the camera!!! What a joke!!! While I can do that with just my other THUMB!!! How about that!

#3 - This entire argument is predicated on the idea that MORE is therefore always BETTER, and of course that is just ignorant and fallacious. Like I just mentioned above, you can only actually USE so many things at a time, so it doesn't matter if you have a million more buttons, if you can only hit them with 10 fingers.

And of course there is a LIMIT, a game only calls for so many possible buttons, and once you've reached that point any more is irrelevant.

So basically, no, you don't have more buttons, and even if you did you can't actually use them, and even if you COULD, you still wouldn't have as many FINGERS available to use them as a controller use. There is no advantage to the mouse's precision over an analog stick, and you are literally dedicating an entire hand to only controlling camera movement, something that is done with a single thumb with a dual-analog controller.

Yea, there is just ABSOLUTELY no argument here. Controllers are far superior in literally EVERY way.

That's not even beginning to talk about actual ERGONOMICS or COMFORT and EASE OF USE, but hopefully that is so obvious it shouldnt even need to be stated.

So ya, please stop developing the game with controllers as an afterthought based on this BIGOTED and WRONG notion and implement it right away please.

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Sathrago

I can play an entire game of league of legends with the two buttons on the side of my mouse if i keybind it with shift, ctrl, and alt.

thats 8 different button combinations while on a controller you will have to "cycle" through action bars to hit the right ability.

Let's also not forget that I can type to you with one hand and move my character purely with my other using the mouse by itself. This also works in combat for pressing abilities.

Ultimately it is a joke to say that controllers are better than mouse and keyboard however I wouldn't mind if later down the road they created some controller compatibility. But never as a heavy focus that could potentially draw away from more important work.

Nagash

When you can play an RTS vs pros on a gamepad then and only then will I say controllers are actually better than keyboard and mouse

Vhaeyne

Xez wrote: »

Notice how you didn't actually address any of my arguments and just stated I'm wrong. Precious

Alright, lets get into it then.

You talked a lot about the number of buttons at your disposal. I don't think anyone with my bias against controllers cares. This is not a issue for devs or players.

The issue is movement and targeting. Why cant controller players heal well? They take to long to target party members. I am not sure if ESO changed this, but at launch. You literally could not target other players with heals. They heal just went to who ever needed it most. That is an issue. As a healer I need to be able to let some people die who are not playing well. The Devs wanted to make the game more controller friendly so they made it so you don't have to target party members. It was a disaster. The same issue goes for tanking. Tanking with a controller means you are not going to be able to single out and click on mobs that need to be picked up fast enough. I have seen this issue in FFXI/FFXIV because I have played both games for years. I have helped people learn to be better players, by showing them not only that they can target better with a mouse, but also that there are more key bind options on keyboard and mouse.

The movement is and always will be an issue. WASD requires three fingers yes, but if you are a player even worth half his salt, you have also bound skills to QEZXCRFVTGB123456. That is three fingers that can hit at least 20 keys and still have better movement than a controller. As @Damokles stated there is a thing called a MMO mouse. It has a whole 12 button number pad on its side. Most high end players use this to add to their ability to move and do rotational skills at the same time. There is a spectrum of performance that ranges from controller to standard keyboard and mouse to keyboard with MMO mouse. The closer you get to the controller the worst players are at moving and using their ability's.

I have seen people get kicked from raids in FFXIV for bringing a controller into savage content. You are wasting 7 other peoples time with your poor movement. WOW is adding controller support in shadowlands this month. I have already seen guilds state that if you play with a controller you can't come to the raid. You don't have the same level of precision with a controller to get to your ability's and move at the same time.

What I think is going on here. Is that you have your key binds set up poorly in every MMO you play, or you want an excuse to play from your couch. If that is the case I would suggest just getting a TV tray and a wireless keyboard and mouse.

daveywavey

Xez wrote: »

I actually made quite a few arguments, here I'll copy it for you again:
Let me start with literally ....

Tell you what, find me the link where Steven said he's doing controller support as an afterthought cos it's not important, and I'll give your wall of troll-ness a read!

Other than that, be happy that they're doing it, and it's in the pipeline! The more ways people have to play, the better, and your favourite is being done before release. Fantastic!

FuryBladeborne

@Xez
First, I am going to assume that you meant that a controller is superior in every way provided that there is an aim correction available. BTW, many competitve PvPers hate fighting against aim assist.

Using a keyboard normally uses your pinky on a, leaving your index finger and thumb free. There are 21 keys under or next to the left hand (from ` to 5 and down through z to b). Using w,a,s,d for movement is optional even if it is common. I have known players that used a mouse for all movement. Using cntrl, shift, and alt as modifiers results in a choice of 84 keys immediately at the left hand. Additionally, I have played MMO's where I used 2 modifiers (such as shift+alt+key) which results in a potential of 63 more keys.

The reality is that there are so many keys available on a keyboard that my selection of keys is based around organization of abilities and which keys are easiest to press based on the speed that I need for the ability. That is, reactive abilities will be immediately under my finger such as f,g,r,t under my index finger while planned abilities will be slightly slower to press. In most games I will still have 100+ keys that I could have used but I chose only to best options for speed and ease of use.

Additionally, my mouse has 7 keys under my thumb and another 4 keys aside from the left and right mouse button. The 7 buttons on my mouse are where I put most of my reactive abilities and the most commonly used abilities. Also, there is a comfortable option of using 2 of the mentioned 4 keys to modify the 7 into a total of 21 keys + the additional 2 remaining keys. The mouse hand is not dedicated to movement alone.

Damokles

FuryBladeborne wrote: »

@Xez
Using a keyboard normally uses your pinky on a, leaving your index finger and thumb free. There are 21 keys under or next to the left hand (from ` to 5 and down through z to b). Using w,a,s,d for movement is optional even if it is common. I have known players that used a mouse for all movement. Using cntrl, shift, and alt as modifiers results in a choice of 84 keys immediately at the left hand. Additionally, I have played MMO's where I used 2 modifiers (such as shift+alt+key) which results in a potential of 63 more keys.

The reality is that there are so many keys available on a keyboard that my selection of keys is based around organization of abilities and which keys are easiest to press based on the speed that I need for the ability. That is, reactive abilities will be immediately under my finger such as f,g,r,t under my index finger while planned abilities will be slightly slower to press. In most games I will still have 100+ keys that I could have used but I chose only to best options for speed and ease of use.

Additionally, my mouse has 7 keys under my thumb and another 4 keys aside from the left and right mouse button. The 7 buttons on my mouse are where I put most of my reactive abilities and the most commonly used abilities. Also, there is a comfortable option of using 2 of the mentioned 4 keys to modify the 7 into a total of 21 keys + the additional 2 remaining keys. The mouse hand is not dedicated to movement alone.

I use my pinky on shift tbh.

FuryBladeborne

Ok, that's generally for run. I haven't had to use shift for run in a while. However the index and middle fingers are actually free because turning is actually done with the mouse. Your only using the ring finger for movement. Everything else on the left hand is free. That was my point as Xez specified that only the pinky and thumb could be used for abilities.

Sorry, I didn't explain the use of all the fingers correctly before. It's late and I didn't even think about some of the parts when I do everything so automatically.

daveywavey

Yeah, and if you're already in melee range, chances are you've got your middle finger, too, for a quick press of [1], [2], and [3].

Damokles

HOW DO ANY OF YOU PEOPLE PLAY MMORPG's?!? :'D

You use your pinky on shift, ring finger on a, middle for w, index finger for d, thumb for spacebar, then bind your abilities to q, e, r, f, g, t, v, c, x, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, Shift-q, Shift-e, Shift-r, Shift-f, Shift-1, Shift-2, Shift-3, Shift-4, Shift-5.
You can reach all those keys with your ring or index finger. And I really want to see a normal standard controller have 23 keys.

If you play a game where you normally walk and use a key to run, then yes running is normally on shift.

Crosim

Come on folks, don't feed the trolls.

Vhaeyne

Crosim wrote: »

Come on folks, don't feed the trolls.

It's hard to tell. I have dealt with these opinions both IRL, and in every MMO I have played that has controller support. Never once met one that did not die every chance they got. XD

Sathrago

Crosim wrote: »

Come on folks, don't feed the trolls.

Look man I like punching things and when the metaphorical punching bag walks up to me and screams punch me my only question is, "For how long?"

Nagash

Sathrago wrote: »

Crosim wrote: »

Come on folks, don't feed the trolls.

Look man I like punching things and when the metaphorical punching bag walks up to me and screams punch me my only question is, "For how long?"

I would say till the mods come in

Bricktop

May as well play with no monitor while you are at it.

VmanGman

This post is comical.

winner909098

Thanks for the laughs! But seriously, don't come in and shout that your preferred method of play is SUPERIOR, and that therefore it should be the only way to play. Just don't.

maouw

from my perspective:

Joystick > WASD
Mouse > Joystick
Trigger buttons > Shift/Ctrl/Alt
keyboard > X/Y/A/B/Shapes
controller ergonomics > keyboard posture issues
Joystick press = mouse wheel press
2 button mouse > controller rumble
mouse pointer for menus and UI > control pad menus and UI
typing in-game on keyboard > virtual keyboard

TOTALS
Keyboard + Mouse: 5.5
Controller: 3.5

Controller has advantages in some areas (particularly better than WASD, has ergonomics and trigger buttons), but keyboard and mouse are just too powerful overall (mouse is OP, typing in chat, interacting with UI in general)

Plus, the difference between WASD and a joystick for movement isn't the end of the world. Especially when the mouse provides much more powerful strafing.

mcstackerson

You can also get a gaming keypad if you don't want to use WASD. I've never really used mine but i know people who forced themselves to get used to it and prefer it now.

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Even without this, i think keyboard has the advantage of shift, control, and alt which quadruples the number of buttons you can use.

I've also been a naga user since the mouse came out.

Ehrgeiz

I support game controllers for Ashes to be honest. Controller users are free food on the battlefield.

Nagash

Ehrgeiz wrote: »

I support game controllers for Ashes to be honest. Controller users are free food on the battlefield.

Oh we have no problem having them be useable its just the OP said they are SUPERIOR to keyboard and mouse

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