Dev Discussion #24 - Overgearing

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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    [Question]
    "How do you intend to keep the community cemented from someone who just came into the game versus someone who's been in late game or endgame for weeks?"

    [Answer]
    "One of the great things about the Node System is that it really works from a new player acquisition standpoint, where these nodes tend to develop larger near the starting location areas around the world; and it brings these players back to those locations if they're citizens and want services within those cities. So, as new players enter the world they're going to actually be surrounded most likely by more population because people are coming back to those larger nodes.
    In addition, we have certain systems that will relate towards a mentorship program that upper level players are going to be able to benefit from partying with and or helping certain lower level players and getting them situated in the game."
    ---Steven

    "Part of the whole experience with Nodes is that there is no real endgame in that the world is constantly shifting every day. Month one is going to be really different from month two and that's for the Level 50s and for the Level 1s. So, that sense of 'what's new?' is going to be the case for any new player who comes. They're going to be able to participate in these systems, and make a difference, from day one.
    It's going to be a different MMO(RPG)."
    ---Jeffrey
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited November 19
    If gear is the driving force for the "endgame" of Ashes, the game will have failed - miserably.
    Gear grind is not one of the design pillars. Nodes are one of the design pillars.
    Sieges/Caravans/Nodes will be the driving force of Ashes late in the game, by design.

    The primary hook for Ashes is that the game is constantly updating as we construct and siege castles and new towns, cities and metropolises. That's what's driving the late game.
    If it's just another game with a focus on endgame gear grind, there's no point in playing.

    People who like to overgear will do so at every level of the game. Including max level. Sure.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    If gear is the driving force for the "endgame" of Ashes, the game will have failed - miserably.
    Gear grind is not one of the design pillars. Nodes are one of the design pillars.
    Sieges/Caravans/Nodes will be the driving force of Ashes late in the game.

    The primary hook for Ashes is that the game is constantly updating as we construct and siege castles and new towns, cities and metropolises. That's what's driving the late game.
    If it's just another game with a focus on endgame gear grind, there's no point in playing.

    Gear may not be Intrepids intention for the driving force behind the game at the level cap, but it will be the motivation for many players.

    If there is no further upgrades for people to get, many people will simply stop logging in until there is (see WoW).

    In a world where there is that upgrade path, players with a penchant for killing others will take it. From there, when other players that want to kill you are constantly getting better gear, getting better gear yourself is a simple matter of survival.

    The node system absolutely is the driving force behind the game as a whole, but that doesn't mean it is for all players.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Gear will be a motivation for most players.
    I don't think I've made a claim about "all players".
  • Noaani wrote: »
    good themepark has the next raid zone ready to go live before players are completely finished with the previous ones.
    I have not seen it since TBC in WOW.
    Noaani wrote: »
    To be fair, few games pull this off, but I don't understand why WoW players ever put up with the rediculous time between content drops in that game. That game is by no means representitive of themepark MMO's.
    It is not just WOW. Every themepark I have played has been link this. I think the only Themeparks I have not raided in were Rift and EQ2.
    Noaani wrote: »
    Not that I am saying Ashes should be more themepark, just that this is not a valid criticism against themepark MMO's - it is a criticism against specific developers.

    Big true! Other than DDO and WOW:Classic/TBC. I don't know what it is like to have more than one raid be relevant at a time.
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  • Dygz wrote: »
    If gear is the driving force for the "endgame" of Ashes, the game will have failed - miserably.
    Gear grind is not one of the design pillars. Nodes are one of the design pillars.
    Sieges/Caravans/Nodes will be the driving force of Ashes late in the game, by design.

    The primary hook for Ashes is that the game is constantly updating as we construct and siege castles and new towns, cities and metropolises. That's what's driving the late game.
    If it's just another game with a focus on endgame gear grind, there's no point in playing.

    People who like to overgear will do so at every level of the game. Including max level. Sure.
    You are going to need gear and a strong economy for all of that to happen. You are just talking past me at this point. We agree on more than you think, I just don't think you understand the economic behind the design pillars.
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  • Vhaeyne wrote: »
    [I think the only Themeparks I have not raided in were Rift and EQ2.
    You missed out.

    While Rift never impressed me with its raiding, EQ2 did.

    That game had encounters that were not defeated for entire content cycles, let alone made obsolete. With the way contested encounters worked in that game, I don't think a single player was ever able to say they had no more potential upgrades to try and get for the decade or so I played it.

    That wasn't just my guild, that was in the entire game.

    Fortunately, most of Intrepids senior staff worked on that game.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    People will want good gear at every level, including max level.
    Lots of people will also want a strong economy at every level.
    We don't agree more than I think.
    We agree more than you thought.
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Dygz wrote: »
    People will want good gear at every level, including max level.
    Lots of people will also want a strong economy at every level.
    We don't agree more than I think.
    We agree more than you thought.

    we all know late game its all about looks and trying to show off :D
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Nagash wrote: »
    we all know late game its all about looks and trying to show off :D
    Showing off is not the same as overgearing or even gearing.
    Lots of late-game showing off is fashion over function.
    Cosmetics are where it's at. And house decorating. And pet and mount collecting.
    And parties!!!!
  • Hiya friends! Thank you for taking the time to give us your thoughts on overgearing here <3 I'm going to go ahead and put together a summary of your top feedback for our team now, but please feel free to keep sharing more in this thread!
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  • Heya! As I'm putting together a recap of our recent Dev Discussion now, I'm going to go ahead and merge this thread ("Overgearing is the endgame.", Change my mind.) into the main one so we can gather all your feedback on the topic in one place <3

    Thanks to all who added some additional context and thoughts in this thread as well!
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  • Good god! The big fish ate the little fish!
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Early Alpha One Tester
    Dygz wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    we all know late game its all about looks and trying to show off :D
    Showing off is not the same as overgearing or even gearing.
    Lots of late-game showing off is fashion over function.
    Cosmetics are where it's at. And house decorating. And pet and mount collecting.
    And parties!!!!

    hahaha very true ^^
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • IMO overgearing is a terrible idea that not only trivializes early game PvE but also gives people a way to evade higher corruption penalties of killing low lvl players.
  • Dygz wrote: »
    Nagash wrote: »
    we all know late game its all about looks and trying to show off :D
    Showing off is not the same as overgearing or even gearing.
    Lots of late-game showing off is fashion over function.
    Cosmetics are where it's at. And house decorating. And pet and mount collecting.
    And parties!!!!

    This is absolutely true for a portion of the playerbase.

    It is kind of like PvP vs PvE though, everyone wants to gear out to an extent, and everyone wants to decorate their house, character, mounts etc to an extent.

    The game needs to cater to both, and so will cater to both. There will be a form of gear based progression at the level cap, and this will be one of the key driving factors of the games economy (along with decorations, node construction and sieges).
  • SathragoSathrago Member
    edited November 20
    I think one key portion of this overgearing argument that has not been talked about too much is the resource cost associated.

    This applies at all levels of "overgearing" be it level restricted or not. You will have to upkeep powerful gear, and the lower your level the more durability loss you will be taking. This is just a fact of having less tools during the leveling process. If they can nail the rarity of powerful gear materials then overgearing, even at max level, will end up being used for special occasions rather than 100% of the time.

    I do not see people running around in their best in slot gear at all times, they will be choosing to have multiple sets for multiple activities according to importance.
  • Sathrago wrote: »
    I think one key portion of this overgearing argument that has not been talked about too much is the resource cost associated.

    This applies at all levels of "overgearing" be it level restricted or not. You will have to upkeep powerful gear, and the lower your level the more durability loss you will be taking. This is just a fact of having less tools during the leveling process. If they can nail the rarity of powerful gear materials then overgearing, even at max level, will end up being used for special occasions rather than 100% of the time.

    I do not see people running around in their best in slot gear at all times, they will be choosing to have multiple sets for multiple activities according to importance.

    Dude I wont shut up about this. I am glad you get it.
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  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Noaani wrote: »
    It is kind of like PvP vs PvE though, everyone wants to gear out to an extent, and everyone wants to decorate their house, character, mounts etc to an extent.

    The game needs to cater to both, and so will cater to both. There will be a form of gear based progression at the level cap, and this will be one of the key driving factors of the games economy (along with decorations, node construction and sieges).
    Everyone is going to gear throughout the entire life of the game.
    People who like to overgear will overgear at every level.
    In Ashes, it's not something that is focused on in the late game just because it's pretty much the only thing left to do.


  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    Sathrago wrote: »
    I do not see people running around in their best in slot gear at all times, they will be choosing to have multiple sets for multiple activities according to importance.
    "Best in slot" is likely to be very conditional in any case.
    In Ashes, there will be a variety of reasons to have multiple sets for multiple activities - resource cost is just one reason among many.

  • Dygz wrote: »
    Sathrago wrote: »
    I do not see people running around in their best in slot gear at all times, they will be choosing to have multiple sets for multiple activities according to importance.
    "Best in slot" is likely to be very conditional in any case.
    In Ashes, there will be a variety of reasons to have multiple sets for multiple activities - resource cost is just one reason among many.

    Good point and agreed
  • Just make the game like in quanzhi gaoshou (The Kings Avatar)! izi :D
  • In my Opinion it could be both.
    Items which are lvl based, which people can just use if you got a special lvl and others which "doesnt" need any lvl and which you can upgrade over time. ( and just after upgrading them you need a lvl based on the upgrade)

    It depends on the rarity, (rare, normal, exotic, legendary, silver tier) which items are easier to upgrade. (Legendaries for example need more rare supplies to upgrade, than a normal weapon, bcause they have higher stats)

    So for example maximal level is 50. you drop a legendary Gear lvl50, which are super rare, are same strong than a lvl 20 or lvl 1 legendary which you upgraded over time to lvl 50.
    And then there should be unique armour/ weapons. lets say silver tier. Which are more than super rare and which can just get upgraded from lvl 1 to 50. they need special supplies and a lot of materials to upgrade and are even stronger,

    So if you get in a "lower dungeon" or drop a legendary from an enemy you can upgrade it on your own to max.
    So you got a lvl 1 Item if you upgrade it is lvl 10 etc. and you need a character on lvl 10 then, to wear it.

    Most Items you wear, you can lose if you die. Almost anything is soul or accountbound. So for example if you get one of those almost impossible to get silver tier items, weapons for example (like clearing a new world boss first, pvp tournaments, gvgs, ultra rare drops from pve "elite" mobs, doing a sidequest first, First 100 people on a server who get max lvl. something like that) are accountbound and you cant lose those silver tier items, threw pvp or stuff. But those Silvertier items always starts from lvl 1 and need Items to upgrade which are rly hard to get, Hardcore Dungeon for example, clearing rare world bosses etc. Those are hard to upgrade to max lvl.

    The Benefit is if the lvl cap increases over time (for example 60) you can upgrade it and dont need to farm the newest worldbosses etc. to get it by a chance from 1%.
    Just some quick thoughts i made. greetz
  • There's so much nuance to this question it's hard to cover it all. If you look at games like DAOC, which imposed soft restrictions on twinking (items would con purple to you and you'd get almost no use out of them and would miss all the time - red you would get some benefit, etc, until it con'd orange-yellow,) I think this was a system that worked well to allow twinking but keep it reasonable. They also had BG's sectioned off by pretty narrowly defined level ranges, which further helped keep things relatively balanced.

    While many players are referencing WoW's heirloom system as 'broken' or a bad idea, WoW did not have a focus on world pvp, so these issues were pretty much confined to PVP arenas and maps. Also, the heirloom system in WoW did not launch at release or anywhere near release; it was really made for players who had played through multiple max level chars and wanted a way to expedite leveling, have an edge, and be really efficient (and spend some currency doing it.) It also saw an overhaul because with the original heirloom release, almost no one used them. How much is too much is a different conversation.

    In the end, I really liked DAOC's method of having items 'con' within a certain level range of you to be usable and get its full effects. I think it makes it easy to control as at max level, you're going to have all kinds of secondary abilities, set bonuses, procs that are going to likely be completely overpowered on anyone below max level - even if toned down. Diablo also does this somewhat well in that the same exact item may exist in a lower form, but the modifiers are adjusted so low that any benefits dynamically scale with level to avoid imbalances. There's a lot of ways to do it, and I think twinking characters is fun. If you get a rare sword drop and you're on a mage, you may want to make a twink char for them to use it on, but I also think some leveling should be required for this to happen or it becomes too easy.
  • Let's look at this from two standpoints; Max Level Character and Leveling/Twink Character.

    Max Level Character: Overgearing really shouldn't be feasible here in correlation with end game encounters. If a character with a full sheet of the best possible gear goes into the hardest content in the game, it should still be challenging otherwise it trivializes the content and points to a stat balancing issue.
    If that same Max Level Character fights lower level content then its innately going to be easier. Ofcourse, with the ability to trade, buy and sell with anyone, even a new player could happen across higher tier gear than they would otherwise obtain on their own so level requirements on gear need to be present.

    Leveling/Twink Character: This is the controversial one IMO.
    On one hand, if you're making an alt and want to invest some of your hard work to make a new character level faster with a bit more ease then I don't see an issue with that. I don't think there should be a level 1 character wearing level 50 gear but something with a power bonus of +5 levels or so should be plenty.
    On the other hand, without level bracketed PvP (WoW Battlegrounds) and a way to essentially stop earning experience then Twinking seems very temporary and shouldn't be a huge issue.

    Now I'm sure we can expect level requirements on gear so when I talk about +5 levels or so of stat advantage, I'm referring to the gap between Normal rarity and the rarest Rarity (Legendary?) of gear at any given level requirement.
    The other way I can see working around this would be to have percentage based stat bonuses on gear instead of flat stats meaning gear would scale more with character level and would allow for much looser restrictions on gear level requirements.
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  • akabearakabear Member, Pioneer
    edited November 24
    In BDO I was able to use my wealth in game and existing characters to grossly overgear my alts to power level them up. Whilst it was an accepted mechanic within game, and whilst I disagree with it, I did use it often.

    I could see this being exploited.

    I prefer bracketed capability but overlapping a little as I always thought level jump at the precise level change was a bit off.

    Please let's not have this:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=-Tko7Q2MlMM
  • SeloSelo Member
    edited November 24
    No twinking please. Atleast not for main char.
    Im not really a fan of gear not beeing BoA for the highest tier gear either.
    It just ruins the work put into getting it if you can just buy them.
    Dygz wrote: »
    If gear is the driving force for the "endgame" of Ashes, the game will have failed - miserably.
    .

    Wrong. Gear grind and character progression has been a fundamental thing in the history of mmorpgs.
    A reason GW2 lost most of its players is becouse the lack of gear and character progression.
    The more of it AoC has, the better.
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  • Selo wrote: »
    No twinking please. Atleast not for main char.
    Im not really a fan of gear not beeing BoA for the highest tier gear either.
    It just ruins the work put into getting it if you can just buy them.
    Dygz wrote: »
    If gear is the driving force for the "endgame" of Ashes, the game will have failed - miserably.
    .

    Wrong. Gear grind and character progression has been a fundamental thing in the history of mmorpgs.
    A reason GW2 lost most of its players is becouse the lack of gear and character progression.
    The more of it AoC has, the better.

    Meh. I don't get excited by gear. Items are just tools for me and raiding was way too much of a hassle to get a new screwdriver. I dream of a mmo with no level and gear/stats progression. But I'm weird. :p

    DAoC was my sweet spot in term of gear (I stopped when guild housing was introduced, so I can't say what it became after that). Star Wars Galaxies crafting dependant gear made it interesting too.
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