My argument against stat dampening in PvP for corrupted players.

Although not always "fair", ganking creates community.

People talk about the bullies who pick on defenseless newbies but, more importantly, they have fond memories of those who came to save them. It takes away from a server to have such heavy-handed punishments for an integral part of the MMO experience.

The solution to ganking in Ashes of Creation shouldn't be "Ganker loses stats progressively the more they kill until they can no longer deal damage.". It diminishes the achievement of killing the corrupted player if he's already severely weakened. What's the fun in 1 shotting someone who's hyped up to be this big scary bandit? Like Illidan himself said the hunter is nothing without the hunt.

The considerable loss of items/crafting materials they already are subject to is punishment enough. It should, and kind of already does, fall into the hands of the victim's friends/guild/bounty hunters/node in which he is a citizen to save him.

I believe they should eschew the system that benefits the single player, and harms PvPers for one that is amicable to both. Which would simply be don't reduce the stats of a corrupted player. That way the the bounty hunter can feel good about saving civilians and the corrupted player doesn't just flee/log off after murdering several low level players, now that there is incentive for them to stay knowing they will have a fair fight against the bounty hunter.

In short, the PvP stat dampening that comes with corruption is too harsh of a punishment. I fear bounty hunter's won't exist if the mechanic remains in game. What are your thoughts?

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BlackBrony

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

@Adaegus Wintermight
I'm sorry, but that's just being a dick.

Precisely!

Which is why your proposal is bad. Ashes wants to avoid dicks, that's why we have stat dampening. And it's great.

Adaegus Wintermight

BlackBrony wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

@Adaegus Wintermight
I'm sorry, but that's just being a dick.

Precisely!

Which is why your proposal is bad. Ashes wants to avoid dicks, that's why we have stat dampening. And it's great.

That's a noble goal, and it's a shame it's impossible. You can deter assholes, but there'll always be some present.

oophus

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Fond memories of being saved? What dream state do you live in?

I feel sorry for you. It doesn't sound like you've ever played on Emerald Dream. When you're playing a game with a strong community, and people run into each other more then twice in the years that they play, they start remembering their interactions and building connections, good or bad.

One of the biggest reasons for why Guild vs Guild wars happen is because of PK'ing. You put a guild in your foe-list and kill them on sight for many reasons, and for a lot of them, RP reasons - especially if a member got PK'ed and camped over and over again. PK'ing builds communities and memories, and some guilds are based off of this. They wants to be remembered as being asswholes, and they often link it to their "lore". Kill every player on sight, or "we hate Dwarfs so kill them all!", where thats a rule for some guides to even be a part of it. They will try to strive being flagged RED all the time, as they feel the game becomes more exciting with higher risks all over the place.

The beauty of sandbox MMO's.

Nieoh

I do not think ganking unwanted players should go unpunished by any means. That's how you lose your non pvp player base.

GroconAlterf

PlagueMonk

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Fond memories of being saved? What dream state do you live in?

I feel sorry for you. It doesn't sound like you've ever played on Emerald Dream. When you're playing a game with a strong community, and people run into each other more then twice in the years that they play, they start remembering their interactions and building connections, good or bad.

Typical reaction from someone with a severely limited scope/vision of past MMOs and their communities. Just because I haven't played the one game you have played means I can't have possibly experienced anything similar in the many MMOs i've played over the years.

That analogy is nonsense. And please, call them Native Americans.

Makes more sense than trying to get us to believe PKing ganking creates a sense of community. /rolls eyes. But not liking my analogy doesn't diminish the point that fear and revenge are poor motivations for "building community". Sure they can but in a negative way. I want to meet people because I WANT to meet them, not out of some necessity and fear over being ganked so we must group together, hire body guards or look for a bounty hunter to hunt down the PKer.

BlackBrony

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

BlackBrony wrote: »

@Adaegus Wintermight
I'm sorry, but that's just being a dick.

Precisely!

Which is why your proposal is bad. Ashes wants to avoid dicks, that's why we have stat dampening. And it's great.

That's a noble goal, and it's a shame it's impossible. You can deter assholes, but there'll always be some present.

Deter is the whole point of the corruption and stat dampening idea. It works. You can grief all you want, but you will do it at a great cost. Even if you grief with crap items, you still take the XP penalty.
It's great.
Now I won't have to deal with griefers.
If you really like PvP you won't enjoy killing someone who's given up and just stands there waiting to be killed.

oophus

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Makes more sense than trying to get us to believe PKing creates a sense of community. /rolls eyes.

But PK'ing do create communities. The reason my guild has had a X year long fight vs another guild was because of PK'ing. One of our teammates got stomped hard, and harrassed, so we put it on ourselves to always gank, kill and harass them back whenever we saw them.

In every MMO we play, where we see the same guild, we greet each other and remember some epic battles that came throughout the years because of the situation that arose in the first MMO. And yes, we still fight! Its in our blood now, and we choose a server because of each other. Mortal enemies! Having someone that you always compare yourself against, and fight against is fun, and it all started with some random PK'ing 15 years ago.

PlagueMonk

oophus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Makes more sense than trying to get us to believe PKing creates a sense of community. /rolls eyes.

But PK'ing do create communities. The reason my guild has had a X year long fight vs another guild was because of PK'ing. One of our teammates got stomped hard, and harrassed, so we put it on ourselves to always gank, kill and harass them back whenever we saw them.

In every MMO we play, where we see the same guild, we greet each other and remember some epic battles that came throughout the years because of the situation that arose in the first MMO. And yes, we still fight! Its in our blood now, and we choose a server because of each other. Mortal enemies! Having someone that you always compare yourself against, and fight against is fun, and it all started with some random PK'ing 15 years ago.

Ah, my fault for over generalizing. Ganking is a type of PKing but not all PKing is ganking. The OP was specifically talking about how being a ganker, not just a PKer forms community.

I fixed that post to more accurately reflect that.

There is a distinction because, in games where the focus is primarily on PKing, it does form community but not in the way the OP is describing it. I played DAoC, ESO and WAR where all do build a sense of realm pride and bonding with each other over the 'common enemy'.

AoC will be different for the most part in that, outside of organized PvP events, things will be more individual/personal/ small group related.

Marcet

I agree with the OP, what is the worst that can happen, a super powerful player will be unkillable?? Then he will be like the witch king of Angmar and lay waste to the land, only an alliance of people will defeat him. That's PvP done correctly, and role done correctly.

rikardp98

From what I have learned after this is that, pking a random player will give you corruption and stat dampening towards that specific player and not towards bounty hunters (and hopefully not towards other players as well). This will remove the the "ganking a random low levels player for hours" and at the same time give the pker a reason (what ever reason they do it for) to pk someone 1-2 times then move in to another player before the bounty hunter comes.

oophus

PlagueMonk wrote: »

There is a distinction because, in games where the focus is primarily on PKing, it does form community but not in the way the OP is describing it. I played DAoC, ESO and WAR where all do build a sense of realm pride and bonding with each other over the 'common enemy'.

AoC will be different for the most part in that, outside of organized PvP events, things will be more individual/personal/ small group related.

This game will have one of the most intensive systems ever built that will promote PK'ing. It has player ran zones by nodes. The top guild will for sure stomp any competition, just to try and be the only lvl 6 node on the server.

Tacic: You are the first guild to reach a level 6 Metropolis, how do you ensure that most people would want to farm in your area to give yourself the most income through taxes?

One way:
Travel to other Level 5 zones and be a dick. Try and make those zones as hospitable as possible by killing everyone at sight, and sell in the fact that your zone is way better as the only Level 6 Metropolis in the server.
More access to end game events, better bosses, better dungeons etc.

If you want to limit PK'ing, then you should focus on how to limit zerging. Guilds above X members. Right now this cap is 300. Imaging having 300 people stumping on normal guilds around 30-60 players. It will be easy for them, and thus easy to wreck havok in the server by trying to limit the possibility of available endgame outside of your own zone.

Actually, this brings up a good point. Gonna make a new thread to discuss this effect.

Dygz

Sathrago wrote: »

The game is designed specifically to deter you from playing corrupted. Thats how the developers feel and a large part of the fans feel. Instead of expanding on corruption we should look for ways to expand open world pvp without falling into the griefing traps that corruption attempts to address.

Nope. We should not be looking for ways to expand open world PvP.
If you want more PvP, go to the battlegrounds, where Corruption is not a factor.

Nagash

I just wish people would spend time to read and understand PvP in ashes its really not that complex

Dygz

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Makes more sense than trying to get us to believe PKing ganking creates a sense of community. /rolls eyes. But not liking my analogy doesn't diminish the point that fear and revenge are poor motivations for "building community". Sure they can but in a negative way. I want to meet people because I WANT to meet them, not out of some necessity and fear over being ganked so we must group together, hire body guards or look for a bounty hunter to hunt down the PKer.

I can see how that could build community on PvP servers.
Ashes is attempting to have every server be a mix of people who typically play on PvP servers, PvP-Optional servers and PvE-Only servers. So...it would alienate a significant portion of the intended playerbase.

I agree.
I want to meet people because I WANT to meet them.
I think working together to build up and defend towns/cities/metros (along with Crafting and Freeholds) will provide ample reasons for players to build community via cooperation.
Castles, Nodes, Guilds, Organizations and Religions will provide ample reasons for players to build community via conflict.

BlackBrony

oophus wrote: »

PlagueMonk wrote: »

Makes more sense than trying to get us to believe PKing creates a sense of community. /rolls eyes.

But PK'ing do create communities. The reason my guild has had a X year long fight vs another guild was because of PK'ing. One of our teammates got stomped hard, and harrassed, so we put it on ourselves to always gank, kill and harass them back whenever we saw them.

In every MMO we play, where we see the same guild, we greet each other and remember some epic battles that came throughout the years because of the situation that arose in the first MMO. And yes, we still fight! Its in our blood now, and we choose a server because of each other. Mortal enemies! Having someone that you always compare yourself against, and fight against is fun, and it all started with PK'ing.

None of this is prevented by having corruption or stat dampening.

BlackBrony

Marcet wrote: »

I agree with the OP, what is the worst that can happen, a super powerful player will be unkillable?? Then he will be like the witch king of Angmar and lay waste to the land, only an alliance of people will defeat him. That's PvP done correctly, and role done correctly.

On the grand scale this sounds awesome, but when you look closer, the witch king of Angmar slaughtered thousands of people just for giggles.
Those are players that can potentially quit, complain on the forums, etc.

All the corruption does is deter non consensual PvP and killing lowbies.

If a player attacks me, it's in my best interest to fight back because I lose less XP and items, but some people just don't like that or know for a fact that they will lose.
You also forget that ashes has a paper rock scissors system, because they're not balancing on 1 v 1 but rather as a group, so if you fight against X class you're already at a disadvantage.

Nagash

Don't for get the devs want "meaningful" PvP and not just a murder box

rikardp98

Nagash wrote: »

Don't for get the devs want "meaningful" PvP and not just a murder box

But then we get to the question, how defines what is meaningful pvp?

I personally like the direction ashes is taking pvp, but I also know a lot of people that find joy in walking the lands and fight anyone they meet.

Merek

As with all proposed systems, I'd need to see it in action to know whether it's bad or not. It sounds annoying but easy to avoid.

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