Negative reviews - is positive this early in development!

I work within the same line of work, and at my job we strive to get negative reviews as early as humanly possible. Positive reviews have no value early in development outside of knowing that we're on track to something. But we hope to get negative reviews as early as possible, because the earlier they come, the less work there is to change the problems to fix them.

When people in the forums have negative things to say, applaud it! Or at least if its constructive. The devs will want to hear stuff that bothers people now, instead of at closer to launch where its too late - or at least there it will cost 10x the money and effort to fix problems that should have been seen and noticed earlier.

Saying that "everything will be fine", or "its alpha" doesn't help them. We're all here because we're hyped on the game, and we took the effort to register to a new site in a new forum to give support. That alone shows appreciation for what the game is trying to be, and what direction they generally have for it. So giving reviews, thoughts, suggestions etc, good or bad is the same as showing support, as long as its constructive.

I have a big stance on how I think they should implement animations, but that's only because I see that they haven't standardized how they should be implemented, and for me - combat is the one single biggest thing for this to be a success. I wish they said that beneath 30 frames, its ok to have one point cache on animations and anything above gets split in more parts so its easier to adjust later. And the ultimate standard should be to always split animations for the upper body and the lower body - as this means the stride can be adjusted separately from the main animation and speed of abilities, or the other way around. Take it as a compliment.

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George_Black

You are not wrong. Just make sure to have a quick search. If it is an old topic, bring it back up. If it is recent, no need.

But also, for the health of the game, find better phrases than "negative reviews"
Concerns about X
Discussion on X

The attention span of people these days is so small, that as soon as they see 2 words, like Negative Review, it's not unlikely that they won't read, but rather go spread misinfo on their social media, based on their pre-determined conclusions.

oophus

@George Black Ahh, you're right! Search google bots and the like. I changed the topic to reflect more the content of the post.

Khronus

I agree with applauding feedback but disagree on expecting others to approach it in a different way than comes naturally to each person individually. I'm not saying "be a troll" with feedback but there is no point in changing your approach if IS truly wants feedback.

The bright, shiny and delayed casting times are absolute garbage VS I have concerns about the casting animations. Both of these lead to the same valuable information for developers as long as this is a popular topic within the community. Just as an example, don't hate me....I am slowly growing to like what we have been shown by the cleric animations.

Could people stay cordial and be nice about their feedback? Absolutely. All feedback is good feedback (this is why in retail they cram review requests every visit).

@George Black Social media is a societal cancer that has no cure. More time is spent spreading the misinformation than actually reading the original post to determine if it is fake or not. It's unfortunate but those who recognize this can at least read through the lines. That's a whole other topic though lol.

Noaani

While I don't disagree in principle, saying you don't like a thing that Intrepid are already going to change is just pointless. If it is going to be changed, reserve your opinion until that change is seen.

Once that change is seen, if you still dislike it, let Intrepid know. If you like it, let them know. However, that is all that is needed - they do not need suggestions for how to fix it.

Adaegus Wintermight

Noaani wrote: »

they do not need suggestions for how to fix it.

Not to start this business again, but suggestions on how to fix it should always be welcome. It never hurts to offer aid, especially if the aid is coming from a professional!

Noaani

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

they do not need suggestions for how to fix it.

Not to start this business again, but suggestions on how to fix it should always be welcome. It never hurts to offer aid, especially if the aid is coming from a professional!

An actual professional wouldn't bother attempting to offer assistance without fully understanding the specifics of the entire project and the implications of those specifics. This is because these specifics will dictate what is viable in a project and what is not even moreso than available technology will dictate that.

People that offer unsolicited assistance are the very definition of non-professionals in any field, let alone in the field in question.

ashleyyn

Noaani wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

they do not need suggestions for how to fix it.

Not to start this business again, but suggestions on how to fix it should always be welcome. It never hurts to offer aid, especially if the aid is coming from a professional!

An actual professional wouldn't bother attempting to offer assistance without fully understanding the specifics of the entire project and the implications of those specifics. This is because these specifics will dictate what is viable in a project and what is not even moreso than available technology will dictate that.

People that offer unsolicited assistance are the very definition of non-professionals in any field, let alone in the field in question.

No one is absolutely right or wrong. Some serious mistakes can even destroy the entire project. Why don't the excellent ones accept better suggestions? Or is it that AOC is now perfect?

Noaani

ashleyyn wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Adaegus Wintermight wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

they do not need suggestions for how to fix it.

Not to start this business again, but suggestions on how to fix it should always be welcome. It never hurts to offer aid, especially if the aid is coming from a professional!

An actual professional wouldn't bother attempting to offer assistance without fully understanding the specifics of the entire project and the implications of those specifics. This is because these specifics will dictate what is viable in a project and what is not even moreso than available technology will dictate that.

People that offer unsolicited assistance are the very definition of non-professionals in any field, let alone in the field in question.

No one is absolutely right or wrong. Some serious mistakes can even destroy the entire project. Why don't the excellent ones accept better suggestions? Or is it that AOC is now perfect?

If your parent or grandparent were getting an operation that would greatly improve their quality of life, would you tell the surgeon how to perform the operation?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that no - you wouldn't. You would make the assumption that the surgeon knows what they are doing, and will leave it in their expert hands. You would very obviously understand that you can't actually help, and if you attempted to talk to the surgeon about how to perform the operation, you would literally just be wasting their time, rather than coming up with a better way to do said operation.

Even if you were a doctor, you would leave it up to the surgeon, as that surgeon knows the specific operation, knows of any medical conditions that you may not be aware of - basically, they know exactly what is going on.

It is the same thing here. While a doctor would have more formal education, the formal education combined with experience the team at Intrepid have means that anyone without both of those simply can't assist them in any realistic manner, and attempting to do so is just a waste of everyones time.

People need to re-learn to value expertise.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

If your parent or grandparent were getting an operation that would greatly improve their quality of life, would you tell the surgeon how to perform the operation?

Haha! Don't be ridiculous!

If we're going to be making a VR game, I would want all the input on it as I can through our brainstorm meetings, and as I've said earlier. I would want critique as fast as possible while we progress. The earlier I hear about something, the less pain is it to alter it. ESPECIALLY towards the target-group of players that will be playing it!

Comparing this towards a life and death situation is ****, and you are still looking at this as a chef trying to form som poor comparison to "too many cooks in the kitchen" idiom. This line of work doesn't work this way! And you have no clue on what you think the devs want or needs in the form of feedback or content in this forum, so for the last time - stop talking for them! Stop trying to muffle feedback out of here, and scare people away! Thats doing them a disservice!

BlackBrony

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If your parent or grandparent were getting an operation that would greatly improve their quality of life, would you tell the surgeon how to perform the operation?

Haha! Don't be ridiculous!

If we're going to be making a VR game, I would want all the input on it as I can through our brainstorm meetings, and as I've said earlier. I would want critique as fast as possible while we progress. The earlier I hear about something, the less pain is it to alter it. ESPECIALLY towards the target-group of players that will be playing it!

Comparing this towards a life and death situation is ****, and you are still looking at this as a chef trying to form som poor comparison to "too many cooks in the kitchen" idiom. This line of work doesn't work this way! And you have no clue on what you think the devs want or needs in the form of feedback or content in this forum, so for the last time - stop talking for them! Stop trying to muffle feedback out of here, and scare people away! Thats doing them a disservice!

Thing is, only Intrepid knows what their target player audience. You might not be.
We have had many many people asking for PvE servers, toogle for PvP or some other great ideas that if they weren't implemented would mean the game would fail.

Feedback is only relevant if it's coming from someone who understands your product.

Yes, you can voice your concerns, but not all feedback is useful.

oophus

BlackBrony wrote: »

Thing is, only Intrepid knows what their target player audience. You might not be.
We have had many many people asking for PvE servers, toogle for PvP or some other great ideas that if they weren't implemented would mean the game would fail.

Feedback is only relevant if it's coming from someone who understands your product.

Yes, you can voice your concerns, but not all feedback is useful.

Then it would be up to Intrepid to update what the target group is. Right now its fitting as I like 90% of the game outside of how combat looks and feels. And I've not been alone in that area for that type of feedback, and they even iterate several times over that things are not final. If things are not final, then shower them with ideas around it! You would be providing them a service if you did.

I've never asked for anything that would alter the games scope. I've only asked to make it bigger in smaller parts towards the same direction using game systems they've already touched on before.

Who are you to judge what kind of feedback is useful or not - for them!?

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

If we're going to be making a VR game, I would want all the input on it as I can through our brainstorm meetings, and as I've said earlier. I would want critique as fast as possible while we progress. The earlier I hear about something, the less pain is it to alter it. ESPECIALLY towards the target-group of players that will be playing it!

For a VR game, sure.

VR doesn't have the same body of knowledge around it that MMORPG's do, and there isn't a single developer on the planet with the experience in VR as any one member of Intrepids staff have in MMO's.

Basically, your response to me saying that we should leave the experts to do what they do is to say that you wouldn't want to do that in a field where there are currently no experts of comparible expertise.

Great argument.

you are still looking at this as a chef

Actually, I am looking at it from the perspective of my current career - which is undisclosed, and will remain that way.

Stop trying to muffle feedback out of here

This just tells me you aren't paying attention.

I am not trying to stop feedback. As I have said, telling Intrepid what you like and dislike about he game is great. Have at it.

Telling them how they should go about fixing what you do not like though, that is just arrogance and making the assumption that you are right, and Intrepid with all their experience in making MMO's know less about that than you do.

If you want to discuss potential ways you would do something in game, again, that's great. Have at it.

Thing is, that discussion is one to be had with us players, not the developers.

oophus

@Noaani the differences between any game and mmos are the added traffic towards players and a server at scale. We're utilizing Zbrush, max, maya, motionbuilder, marvelous designer, substance designer/painter etc and thus most programs they use in their pipeline is also utilized at most studeos.

An animator for example doesn't need to come from games. I'll bet 100% that if they got someone who wanted to join from film who worked at Pixar or Disney for example they would snatch them up. They will then learn how to work at the office through just a few weeks of practice in how games need a few new rules over film in how stuff are delivered and how animations needs to start and end often at the same pose.

You made an example coming from a chef, and it's not transferable. My comments is looked at from my own stance in my own work. I would appreciate feedback and suggestions and do with them as I see fit. Some suggestions may even be used in a different scenario simply because I know how everything can be utilized in my line of work in my workflow. Thus if the suggestion isn't transferable in this topic it may be somewhere else and thus have its value anyway.

If you want to discuss this, do it from the topic at hand. Don't tell me what kind of feedback they need as you have zero insight in that. I will just continue to ignore your stance on this and continue to provide feedback I think I my self would like to receive from a developers standpoint.

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

.
An animator for example doesn't need to come from games. I'll bet 100% that if they got someone who wanted to join from film who worked at Pixar or Disney for example they would snatch them up. They will then learn how to work at the office through just a few weeks of practice in how games need a few new rules over film in how stuff are delivered and how animations needs to start and end often at the same pose.

I have no doubt about that.

The thing is, that few weeks of learning the specifics of the business and of the project are key. It allows you to take the education and experience you have, and work out how best to apply it to your new work environment.

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

oophus

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

This is stupid. I've worked in this segment for 10 years. I've used the same programs from when some of them were released for the first time.

In any way, I have no desire or interests in your thoughts and I don't care what you think. I will as I've said continue to give the same type of feedback I my self are happy to hear while in the middle of a project.

ashleyyn

oophus wrote: »

I work within the same line of work, and at my job we strive to get negative reviews as early as humanly possible. Positive reviews have no value early in development outside of knowing that we're on track to something. But we hope to get negative reviews as early as possible, because the earlier they come, the less work there is to change the problems to fix them.

When people in the forums have negative things to say, applaud it! Or at least if its constructive. The devs will want to hear stuff that bothers people now, instead of at closer to launch where its too late - or at least there it will cost 10x the money and effort to fix problems that should have been seen and noticed earlier.

Saying that "everything will be fine", or "its alpha" doesn't help them. We're all here because we're hyped on the game, and we took the effort to register to a new site in a new forum to give support. That alone shows appreciation for what the game is trying to be, and what direction they generally have for it. So giving reviews, thoughts, suggestions etc, good or bad is the same as showing support, as long as its constructive.

I have a big stance on how I think they should implement animations, but that's only because I see that they haven't standardized how they should be implemented, and for me - combat is the one single biggest thing for this to be a success. I wish they said that beneath 30 frames, its ok to have one point cache on animations and anything above gets split in more parts so its easier to adjust later. And the ultimate standard should be to always split animations for the upper body and the lower body - as this means the stride can be adjusted separately from the main animation and speed of abilities, or the other way around. Take it as a compliment.

I feel that AOC doesn’t know much about further testing of games, whether it’s technical or imitation,
On the technical level, when you have insufficient abilities, you should ask for better suggestions instead of sticking to your own ideas. This is wrong.
At the game level, the challenges faced by future MMORPGs will be greater than in the past. The superficial phenomenon is invisible. Failure to solve some deep-seated problems will make the game face greater risks.
For example, in the production of AOC equipment, Intrepid Studios imitates the model of Korean games in the ancient century, but this model has many drawbacks. However, AOC did not further understand the drawbacks. Two different operating modes require two Different ideas, not the same routines
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ashleyyn

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

This is stupid. I've worked in this segment for 10 years. I've used the same programs from when some of them were released for the first time.

In any way, I have no desire or interests in your thoughts and I don't care what you think. I will as I've said continue to give the same type of feedback I my self are happy to hear while in the middle of a project.

Do you think others are stupid because the software you currently use is the most advanced? The most perfect one? Will there be more perfect game development software in the future? The future should be more perfect, rather than people like you who are stagnant, people who have been in one place, you are really too stupid

Noaani

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

This is stupid. I've worked in this segment for 10 years.

I have no reason to believe this - you appear to understand how to google a few basic terms, but don't understand how to use BBCode - which doesn't bode well for you claiming any kind of career like this.

I will as I've said continue to give the same type of feedback I my self are happy to hear while in the middle of a project

Maybe if you had have spent less time reading worthless feedback and more time working on the projects you claim to be involved in, after 10 years you would have been pulled from working on water and fire in to a more senior position.

If I spent 10 years in one segment and wasn't running projects by then (or at least the lead of a significant portion of a project), I'd be embarassed. But it's ok, I'm still assuming you don't work in this field at all, so no need to be embarrased.

ashleyyn

Noaani wrote: »

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

This is stupid. I've worked in this segment for 10 years.

I have no reason to believe this - you appear to understand how to google a few basic terms, but don't understand how to use BBCode - which doesn't bode well for you claiming any kind of career like this.

I will as I've said continue to give the same type of feedback I my self are happy to hear while in the middle of a project

Maybe if you had have spent less time reading worthless feedback and more time working on the projects you claim to be involved in, after 10 years you would have been pulled from working on water and fire in to a more senior position.

If I spent 10 years in one segment and wasn't running projects by then (or at least the lead of a significant portion of a project), I'd be embarassed. But it's ok, I'm still assuming you don't work in this field at all, so no need to be embarrased.

In these 10 years
If you explore deeper issues in this field, you may become more valuable if you play a greater role in the project. Or in this project, fish in troubled waters and only focus on the topics you think. It is not clear whether you can face the progress of time.
A person with extensive experience should explore more, collect better topics shared by others, to make himself valuable, and then play a role in the project. If you can only use the experience you have learned in the long-term work, you may have more knowledge if you don’t. In serious cases, you may be eliminated by the times. Don’t you think about the reason?

ashleyyn

oophus wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I am happy to say you are in no way professional - without learning the specifics of the project, you shouldn't comment on it. No one underatands this more than a professional, and so anyone willing to offer "suggestions" without being that familiar is obviously not a professional.

This is stupid. I've worked in this segment for 10 years. I've used the same programs from when some of them were released for the first time.

In any way, I have no desire or interests in your thoughts and I don't care what you think. I will as I've said continue to give the same type of feedback I my self are happy to hear while in the middle of a project.

In the MMORPG projects in recent years, many people who have been in this industry for 10 years like you have not found that many of their recent development works ended in failure? To develop a new type of MMORPG, the staff do not go for a deeper understanding, but use the knowledge they have learned before. This is because they are limited by themselves and are unwilling to go for more new knowledge.

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