The Flaw in the flagging system

Competition over in-game resources is inevitable, that much is obvious. If two players want to compete for resources, and they both flag for pvp, the system works fine.

The main problem is the availability of Karma Bombing as counter-play to PKing. Generally speaking, running around taking mob spawns to disrupt you (so you either have to kill them or leave), or once you've flagged red the first time, running into your abilities so that you either end up killing them again or have to stop grinding. This happened all the time in Black Desert, even when there was a 1% penalty to your exp bar on death. Then the devs of that game made the brilliant decision to remove the exp entirely but kept the low karma penalties like gear loss in the game.

This resulted in an even more toxic environment where the meta was to lower your opponents HP and stun them so that mobs would kill them in your place.

Ultimately it would be best if AoC cultivated a combatant culture where death penalties stayed low and people respected the winner enough to leave, but in my experience this is not usually the case in MMOs. There are probably solutions to these problems but it's hard to say without experiencing it first hand. For some examples that have been brought up in BDO: no karma penalty for killing the same person repeatedly within a short duration, respawn points moving further and further away on repeated deaths (eventually, spawning at a city rather than the local node), etc.

It hardly seems fair to punish pking to the degree of gear loss or severe dampening. There are plenty of other PvP scenarios in the game that will surely have no penalty such as under cutting prices, which happen outside of the already penalty-free scenarios of node, guild, castle wars etc.

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daveywavey

That's what it's all about!

EVERYBODY!!!
"Dooooooo the hokey cokeeey....."

Merek

akabear wrote: »

Whilst there might be a relative safety from the pk system by participating within caravan fights, I can see that very action escalating conflict to potential fights of recompense be that one on one, clan vs clan or even node vs node.

The caravan system, as it stands currently, sounds very themepark-ey. A caravan should just happen, I shouldn't need to flag-on for the event or whatever. Making too many normal day to day tasks "events" ruins them. But again, we'll see...

Jamation

Merek wrote: »

The caravan system, as it stands currently, sounds very themepark-ey. A caravan should just happen, I shouldn't need to flag-on for the event or whatever. Making too many normal day to day tasks "events" ruins them. But again, we'll see...

I think this is more of a programming thing/issue considering if you didn't flag for attack/defend your skills could be hurting the side you actually meant to help. It's like a temporary party without manually making a party in a way.
And there may be a few event caravans, but for the most part caravans aren't really "events" to begin with, they're just players shipping large quantities of goods from one location to another. So I think it will happen fairly organically.

akabear

I would have thought that if certain player or players lose their caravan cargo during transportation, then perhaps they might get a little upset at the financial loss and therefore might consider retribution towards those that interfered with the transportation at a later time, be that pk or clan war out side the safe pvp enabled conflict around the caravan..

That is just me, or is there no loss to the to those delivering?

Nightly

akabear wrote: »

I would have thought that if certain player or players lose their caravan cargo during transportation, then perhaps they might get a little upset at the financial loss and therefore might consider retribution towards those that interfered with the transportation at a later time, be that pk or clan war out side the safe pvp enabled conflict around the caravan..

That is just me, or is there no loss to the to those delivering?

They do lose a portion of the goods if they lose the fight

unknownsystemerror

Nightly wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

I would have thought that if certain player or players lose their caravan cargo during transportation, then perhaps they might get a little upset at the financial loss and therefore might consider retribution towards those that interfered with the transportation at a later time, be that pk or clan war out side the safe pvp enabled conflict around the caravan..

That is just me, or is there no loss to the to those delivering?

They do lose a portion of the goods if they lose the fight

And the defenders lose potential rewards for a successful escort, even if they had no "financial" stake in the creation of the caravan.

McMackMuck

Elo wrote: »

Just my opinion as someone with very little pvp experience: I like the concept of karma. I know that if someone kills me red vs green, I will immediately run from the respawn, wait for him to be at reduced hp, then exact righteous vengeance as green vs red. I guess that's what karma bombing must mean.

I would even prefer the karma system to go further. Let's say someone kills me red vs green. Then when I see him a month later and attack green vs green, then I would like if we both automatically become purple (forced purple on him), so if I killed him then no corruption would be given to me for righting the previous wrong. At that point we would be even, so the next fight would cause corruption. It's just a thought and opinion, I guess it may over-complicate the system. I just worry that under the current system, when I see him a month later and get righteous vengeance. If I turn red, the people standing around will assume I am the bad guy.

Again, I am pve raider. Consider me the pvp novice who stepped into the pvp adult discussion.

When I first read it I really liked the idea. Then I thought about it for a while. There's a difference between "Justice" and "Vengeance". Justice is the EXP debt that is earned by a corrupted player, along with the chance of dropping gear for repeat offenders. Vengeance is what you are talking about.

Maybe the "Justice" should also include some kind of repayment to you for your losses if the corrupted is killed by a bounty hunter. As to what a "fair" repayment would be, who knows. Maybe part of the Bounty Hunter's job after cashing the bounty certificate is to deliver a Cert to your node storage containing a percentage of the gatherables you lost, with the Bounty hunter gaining some EXP for their efforts?

Nightly

unknownsystemerror wrote: »

Nightly wrote: »

akabear wrote: »

I would have thought that if certain player or players lose their caravan cargo during transportation, then perhaps they might get a little upset at the financial loss and therefore might consider retribution towards those that interfered with the transportation at a later time, be that pk or clan war out side the safe pvp enabled conflict around the caravan..

That is just me, or is there no loss to the to those delivering?

They do lose a portion of the goods if they lose the fight

And the defenders lose potential rewards for a successful escort, even if they had no "financial" stake in the creation of the caravan.

working as intended?

insomnia

Yet another post from someone that dosen't want to get punished for PvP, or attacking someone that dosen't want to be attacked. If you don't want to risk the punishment, don't PvP.
How about we wait and see how the system actualy work. The game is in early alpha

Atama

insomnia wrote: »

Yet another post from someone that dosen't want to get punished for PvP, or attacking someone that dosen't want to be attacked. If you don't want to risk the punishment, don't PvP.
How about we wait and see how the system actualy work. The game is in early alpha

We’re not even in the actual alpha testing stage yet. We are doing “aloha previews”, what Intrepid considers true alpha testing will start April 6. But yeah, it’s extremely early.

Virulent

This game is not for you, if you don't like a core feature of it. It's not changing.

Frostshot1

Maybe it has been answered clearly somewhere, but i haven't seen or heard it. What are the conditions under which you will lose items when you die? Is it every time you die, every time you die to a player combatant? Do the same rules apply to loot loss if you chose not to fight back? i.e. un-flagged. Or only if you flag to defend yourself? I know they said corrupted players have a chance to drop completed gear. So I'm guessing that means just other goods are subject to loss unless corrupted. Lots of ??? still on this obviously.

Warth

@Frostshot

Gear is only droppable when corrupted.
Ressources, Certificates and Materials will be dropped every time you die, no matter how you die or what your flagging state is.

Which amount hasn't been determined yet, however, unflagged players will lose the basic amount, combatants (flagged players) will lose half the amount unflagged players drop and corrupted lose 4x as much as unflagged players.

If i had to guess, i'd expect it to be somewhere around these value:
- 20-25% of ressources, certs and materials for unflagged players.
- 10-12,5% for flagged players
- 80-100% for corrupted players.

The values are pure speculation on my end though.

bloodprophet

Frostshot wrote: »

Maybe it has been answered clearly somewhere, but i haven't seen or heard it. What are the conditions under which you will lose items when you die? Is it every time you die, every time you die to a player combatant? Do the same rules apply to loot loss if you chose not to fight back? i.e. un-flagged. Or only if you flag to defend yourself? I know they said corrupted players have a chance to drop completed gear. So I'm guessing that means just other goods are subject to loss unless corrupted. Lots of ??? still on this obviously.

Half way down.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_corruption

Frostshot1

Thanks for the info, very helpful. Seems like the penalty for being afk and dying is worse than someone who fought back. Seems a little harsh considering there is no fast travel available if something were to come up IRL. Having kids occasionally demands fleeing the keyboard at haste.

This is good however "Death penalties do not apply to objective-based events (such as caravans, guild wars, and node sieges" Hopefully arena or battle grounds, if there are any, would have similar circumstances. Or dropping specific event credits of some sort.

Asgerr

Frostshot wrote: »

Thanks for the info, very helpful. Seems like the penalty for being afk and dying is worse than someone who fought back. Seems a little harsh considering there is no fast travel available if something were to come up IRL. Having kids occasionally demands fleeing the keyboard at haste.

I would always hope that someone trying to PK for any reason, would have at least enough brain to stop attacking once they saw their target wasn't fighting back. Be it AFK or not, I would think to myself, "Ok this person is just trying to get me corrupt", and leave them be.

Perhaps this could somehow lead to people strongly goading others into attacking first or fighting back to avoid the penalty.

Frostshot1

Yeah I remember one time, way way back in Vanilla WoW when a horde shamen was running around standing on low level toons out in front of Iron forge. And my friend made the mistake of clicking on him. Auto attacked and the shamen proceeded to corpse camp him until the flag finally wore off.

Sathrago

Frostshot wrote: »

Yeah I remember one time, way way back in Vanilla WoW when a horde shamen was running around standing on low level toons out in front of Iron forge. And my friend made the mistake of clicking on him. Auto attacked and the shamen proceeded to corpse camp him until the flag finally wore off.

Good times.

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