Which loot system do you prefer for group content?

Alpha 1 is right around the corner so i would like to discuss one of the most game defining systems in a MMORPG - the loot system. For people new to the genre here is a small explanation of all possible looting rules that i know. I will add some pros and cons to each system if i have some time or if someone has good arguments for/against each system.

Master Loot: The party/raid lead is in charge of all loot and can decide which items go to whom.

Pros:
No random distribution
Enables discussion
Cons:
Exploitable if wrong person is the leader
Personal favors play a big roll

Dice Roll: This is often coupled with the Master Loot system: Each person who wants to have a specific item rolls a dice from 1 to 100. The highest roll wins the item.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
Not everyone should roll at every item (greed/need)
If unlucky, you dont get any items for a long time

Highest Bid: Each dropped item has its own auction between all party members. The item goes to the person who bids the most gold on it, the gold is automatically distributed to all other party members.

Pros:
Greedy people need a lot of money
If a rare item drops, everyone gets gold
Itemvalue is relevant
Cons:
The rich get most items
People who dont need the item might bid so you have to pay more

Free Loot: The items is not protected by any system and can be looted by every party member.

Pros:
Builds a lot of trust if done correctly
Cons:
Possibel to create a lot of tension between party members
Ninja looter

Personal Loot: Items will be automatically distributed to every party member, without any social interaction.

Pros:
No tension between party members
Cons:
No social interaction between party members
Luck plays a big role

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

CosmicPube

Change my mind; but wouldn't dice rolls for loot be incredibly frustrating?

We know items have drop chances in MMOs, so you grind a boss for example over and over till you get a specific item and then when you do get that item, you have to roll dice to get another drop chance of claiming the item? so you'd have to get lucky twice in a row to actually get the item.

Vhaeyne

CosmicPube wrote: »

Change my mind; but wouldn't dice rolls for loot be incredibly frustrating?

We know items have drop chances in MMOs, so you grind a boss for example over and over till you get a specific item and then when you do get that item, you have to roll dice to get another drop chance of claiming the item? so you'd have to get lucky twice in a row to actually get the item.

I will give changing your mind a shot.

Yes, your assumption is right that you would have to get lucky twice. In most classic raid scenarios this is true.

The thing is that unless the drops the same item for everyone, you will always have to get lucky twice. To my knowledge no serious MMO does this.

If you look at this page:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting

You will see all of the allowed loot methods. When you join a party it is ultimately up to you as a player to decide if the loot system is right for you. It also creates organic social interaction, by putting players in a situation where they may have to negotiate a far looting situation for the group.

Systems like WOWs personal loot system take away guild agency and player agency to decide what loot system is right for them at what time. Keep in mind that personal loot is you getting lucky twice, you just don't see the roll.

For some content, like grinding group mobs you may want round robin, for bosses you may want need/greed or master looter, for just helping your friends you might want free-for-all. Each loot system has its place.

I am very hopeful that intrepid adds the bidding option as a possible loot system. It could be useful in a verity of party situations.

To me what is most frustrating is when a game company decides it knows what loot system is best for all content, and takes the options away from the players.

Tarkl

I don’t want to depend on my luck to get an item or another or get nothing, although ninjaloots would be the order of the day and favoritism in certain members of the groups is a reality, all that could be made up for if Intrepid punishes the ninjaloots and the most important thing that should happen, look for a group of legal people, who fit everyone’s preferences Knowing with whom to get together to play and to have friendships, that in my opinion is the most important thing of an mmo, they interact and find people that fit you and can be a friendly environment.

Nor do I want to be imposed a system of forced loot, and just to have that option, I consider that in this issue the more variety and tools are given, should be healthier for all, since it covered more options than one person or another could differ in preference

I don’t know how you could avoid the ninjaloot but it is my main concern , all systems have something wrong, in which players and intrepid we should act so that it does not become something toxic and unpleasant

PD: Again I think the most important thing is that intrepid act correctly against ninjaloots or look for some way to avoid those situations. Maybe only 1 item per person but the Masterlooter deals it ?

Warth

Vhaeyne wrote: »

CosmicPube wrote: »

Change my mind; but wouldn't dice rolls for loot be incredibly frustrating?

We know items have drop chances in MMOs, so you grind a boss for example over and over till you get a specific item and then when you do get that item, you have to roll dice to get another drop chance of claiming the item? so you'd have to get lucky twice in a row to actually get the item.

I will give changing your mind a shot.

Yes, your assumption is right that you would have to get lucky twice. In most classic raid scenarios this is true.

The thing is that unless the drops the same item for everyone, you will always have to get lucky twice. To my knowledge no serious MMO does this.

If you look at this page:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting

You will see all of the allowed loot methods. When you join a party it is ultimately up to you as a player to decide if the loot system is right for you. It also creates organic social interaction, by putting players in a situation where they may have to negotiate a far looting situation for the group.

Systems like WOWs personal loot system take away guild agency and player agency to decide what loot system is right for them at what time. Keep in mind that personal loot is you getting lucky twice, you just don't see the roll.

For some content, like grinding group mobs you may want round robin, for bosses you may want need/greed or master looter, for just helping your friends you might want free-for-all. Each loot system has its place.

I am very hopeful that intrepid adds the bidding option as a possible loot system. It could be useful in a verity of party situations.

To me what is most frustrating is when a game company decides it knows what loot system is best for all content, and takes the options away from the players.

perfect explanation @Vhaeyne

Just one more thing i'd add:
In WoWish games you do indeed grind the boss for some BiS Item. In AoC this won't be the case, as instant gear drops will be a very rare occurence. Instead you get materials to craft said items yourself.

In WoW each boss kill awards 3-5 gear items.
In AoC you might just see 1 item every 20-100 kills, but a bunch of crafting materials every kill.

CosmicPube

Vhaeyne wrote: »

CosmicPube wrote: »

Change my mind; but wouldn't dice rolls for loot be incredibly frustrating?

We know items have drop chances in MMOs, so you grind a boss for example over and over till you get a specific item and then when you do get that item, you have to roll dice to get another drop chance of claiming the item? so you'd have to get lucky twice in a row to actually get the item.

I will give changing your mind a shot.

Yes, your assumption is right that you would have to get lucky twice. In most classic raid scenarios this is true.

The thing is that unless the drops the same item for everyone, you will always have to get lucky twice. To my knowledge no serious MMO does this.

If you look at this page:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Looting

You will see all of the allowed loot methods. When you join a party it is ultimately up to you as a player to decide if the loot system is right for you. It also creates organic social interaction, by putting players in a situation where they may have to negotiate a far looting situation for the group.

Systems like WOWs personal loot system take away guild agency and player agency to decide what loot system is right for them at what time. Keep in mind that personal loot is you getting lucky twice, you just don't see the roll.

For some content, like grinding group mobs you may want round robin, for bosses you may want need/greed or master looter, for just helping your friends you might want free-for-all. Each loot system has its place.

I am very hopeful that intrepid adds the bidding option as a possible loot system. It could be useful in a verity of party situations.

To me what is most frustrating is when a game company decides it knows what loot system is best for all content, and takes the options away from the players.

Thanks for that explanation, it's much more fair now that i remember that parties have the option to pick loot systems.

I agree on the bidding part, it was initially in my opinion the best and fairest option so far.

Warth

To add to this:
Your chances to receive said item is exactly the same, whether its personal loot or a need/greed system if setup properly:

In a personal loot system:
First the game calculates if the item drops (let's just assume a 5% drop chance) then the game decides which ones are eligible to receive said item and rolls which one of the 4 (let's say) warriors gets the item.

In a communal loot system:
First the game calculates if the item drops (the same 5% drop chance), just that the distribution of the item is done by the group itself, instead of automatically through the game. So either through a bidding system, a loot master, a need/greed system or round robin.

The chance for the 5% item to drop isn't inherently different at all and the chance for your to get it isn't different either, if all of the 4 warrior decide to press Need.

The chances is inherently the same, the only difference is, that in a personal loot system, you wouldn't get to see the item until the game has figured out the recipient, so you don't feel like you missed something.

What @Caeryl said isn't a question of the loot system itself, but the balancing of the amount of loot received across all players within the group/raid.
I do think that's a very important topic in order to make the player feel like their time was well spent. Its just not part of the loot distribution system itself, but a very important stand-alone topic.
Conflating these 2 topics doesn't help anybody but those who want to push their agenda and mislead people into thinking, that the amount of loot people get is inherently increase through the utilization of a personal loot system, which system wise, just isn't the case.

The amount of loot players have received with the implementaion of personal systems did indeed increase. That was however, not due to the change in the loot distribution rules, but an increase of the loot quantity distributed by each boss. One of many measures in an exceptionally long list, that were aimed towards

making the game more casually friendly
adding more instant gratification

Lughlaoch

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

VmanGman

Lughlaoch wrote: »

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

This is often an issue in games where loot is bound on pickup or where loot has no other use besides equipping it. However, in AoC loot will not be bound to your character (often even after you equip it) and also loot can be broken down for very important materials used for crafting and repairs.

Lastly, in AoC any class can wear any armor and weapon so there won't be a situation where no one can use the item.

Your concern is not an issue in AoC.

Asgerr

I have read about 95% of this thread, so apologies if I'm repeating something I skipped in that 5%.

The thing is, it appears most of us are talking about loot under the assumption that it's going to be gear. As it usually is in most MMOs.

However I seem to remember Steven saying that actual gear items will be very rare drops. We're more likely to get resources that we can then process and craft into the actual gear.

If that is the case, they I don't believe personal loot would be out of question, as we'd likely be getting simple resources, and then how anyone goes about using them (sell them, supply them to their guild, craft with it etc) is up to them, and there is no greater drama about people conflicting over who gets that shiny new sword.

I like the Master Looter thing in general, however I do agree that it would require a pre-established team to fully trust it.

In FFXIV the benefit of set classes is that every class uses a different type of weapon and groups of classes use specific gear. That way when a spear drops, only the dragoons can roll need. If some gauntlets are meant for tanks, then only tanks can roll need. After that it's up to RNG if there are multiple tanks/dragoons/etc rolling need.

However with every class being able to wear every type of armor as well as using any and all weapon types, this option would never work.
A mage might have decided that he really needs that warhammer, 'cause it boosts something or other that works for his chosen build (which may or may not be true depending on the freedom of class building and RP).

Can we consider this base system design an issue for loot ? Or can we think that everyone is going to be well natured enough to be fair in their requests and distributions ?

VmanGman

Asgerr wrote: »

The thing is, it appears most of us are talking about loot under the assumption that it's going to be gear. As it usually is in most MMOs.

However I seem to remember Steven saying that actual gear items will be very rare drops. We're more likely to get resources that we can then process and craft into the actual gear.

If that is the case, they I don't believe personal loot would be out of question, as we'd likely be getting simple resources, and then how anyone goes about using them (sell them, supply them to their guild, craft with it etc) is up to them, and there is no greater drama about people conflicting over who gets that shiny new sword.

The resources that will drop from dungeon bosses are probably more than just some iron ore (or any other basic material). It will probably be the dragon's tooth which can be crafted into an epic dagger. So if everyone gets their own personal dragon tooth, scale, eye etc. then you would still end up with the issue of over saturation. If everyone gets personalized loot (even if it is mostly materials), that means that there will be an abundance of materials and that can hurt the game's economy.

And if the personal is not distributed to everyone and is instead based on RNG selection, then 40 man raids could result in someone being unlucky with RNG for weeks or months and never have the game select them for that personal loot.

So either you have over saturation or people who never get the personal loot RNG.

Tarkl

the issue of whether they are material, only increases the need to be in a guild group, or known people, because if they are trusted people, they will always give materials those who can use them because it is simply a help to all.
I will give this dragon scale and tooth to my weapon smith, and these other things to my other craftsmen, immediately after we create the new items to equip our characters.

but instead people who do not want /have guild, and prefer a game alone or with unknown people, may never get that tooth which makes it always better to go with people who know that they can give you the tooth

I imagine that a possible solution could be an anti bad luck system, where if you strip away many things you don’t want / nothing, you can cause a certain fall at a certain moment, something like, I have killed the dragon 5times and the tooth has not fallen, kill number 6 will ensure me a loot which I will decide, within the pool of that dragon

obviating that this is quite limited, only the raids boss / world boss, and maybe not 5 times is just an idea, to try to come at a time to ensure that item you so much want

also could be simply in certain articles, and you can’t decide
this could be the case to exceed that item as every X time many players could cause to have that item, and that could depend on the time to cause it / amount you need

Arkethos

I like the Need/Greed Dice Roll system for pugs and Master Looter for guild runs, but wouldn’t mind a hybrid of sorts...

Perhaps the party could vote on the system, upon entering a dungeon. Vote timer of 30 seconds or something. Master Looter vs Need/Greed vs FFA... but also add in some form of personal loot in a random way. Like each mob has a (smaller) chance to drop something that only you can see/loot, but it’s something you can trade or offer up to the group. Adds a little “RP” element of surprise when it seems like the rest of the party skipped right past something that your character was lucky enough to spot. Certain gear/class perks could enhance the frequency of finding these “extra” items.

Noaani

Lughlaoch wrote: »

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

A number of games have systems in place to prevent unusable items dropping.

One game I played had a system where not only would you need to have someone of a class that can use the item present, but you needed to have someone of the class present that didn't already have the item.

Lughlaoch

vmangman wrote: »

Lughlaoch wrote: »

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

This is often an issue in games where loot is bound on pickup or where loot has no other use besides equipping it. However, in AoC loot will not be bound to your character (often even after you equip it) and also loot can be broken down for very important materials used for crafting and repairs.

Lastly, in AoC any class can wear any armor and weapon so there won't be a situation where no one can use the item.

Your concern is not an issue in AoC.

Thank you for reply! Certainly alleviates "my" concern in one mighty swing. Cheers!

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

Lughlaoch wrote: »

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

A number of games have systems in place to prevent unusable items dropping.

One game I played had a system where not only would you need to have someone of a class that can use the item present, but you needed to have someone of the class present that didn't already have the item.

That is a non issue in AoC since any class can use any item. Also, items will be useful in other ways (repairing/crafting) and will not be there just for equipping.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Lughlaoch wrote: »

Having scanned many of the posts, there seems to be a great deal of opinions to sort through. I have no doubt the best option will be selected. However, what I did not see was an idea that always bothered me. Why in a group loot drop does a piece no-one in the group can use drop? (i.e., 5 rogues and a piece of mail drops). Is there a way to look at the party, sort through the loot table and drop at least an appropriate piece for someone? OR have a system in place to TRADE for the correct item (A vendor that would trade cloth for plate, etc. WoW had/has a system like this with tokens that drop from bosses versus specific pieces). What I always thought would be a great idea is if the piece of loot had a drop down menu ON IT so that the player could select cloth, leather, mail, plate, etc (stats change accordingly minus enhancements). Once the toon was through with the item it could be passed through the "family" account to another player that could change it to the appropriate weight and use. Certainly alleviates the need to run a dungeon/raid hundreds of times for the exact piece.
My two cents.
Keep up the fantastic work and looking forward to betas/release.

A number of games have systems in place to prevent unusable items dropping.

One game I played had a system where not only would you need to have someone of a class that can use the item present, but you needed to have someone of the class present that didn't already have the item.

That is a non issue in AoC since any class can use any item. Also, items will be useful in other ways (repairing/crafting) and will not be there just for equipping.

For the most part (like, 99.9% of the time) it is.

I was just pointing out to the poster I replied to that some games have long since dealt with the issue they thought was common among all MMO's.

Khronus

Give us all forms of loot management. I will be personally using master looter during guild raids and need/greed with regular groups whenever possible.

I love all of the people who complain about master looter and who have been burned by garbage people in the past. My advice to you is find a guild/group you can trust.

Ganknasty

NBG, master loot, and free loot if the group votes for it?

Songcaller

From my perspective the economy will be a disaster. If we take Guild Groups using Master Looter, then the Guild will get priority loot and thus no resources or finished items will see the market place.

If we use Pick Up Groups and use Need/Greed, then resources will filter through to the market place only to be bought up by Guild Crafters.

I do not know at what point crafters will be free to move from crafting for the guild to craft for all and sundry. All high end resources will be used to maintain high end gear. All Guilds will have to maintain the Guild Gear before any external gear is even contemplated.

Could be a slow process with limited scope for some months after launch. Hand downs could see the market but Guilds would again get first priority on any hand downs. However, I saw a post elsewhere that stated lower tier weapons could be used to repair high tier weapons, so even less hand downs will reach the market if that is the case.

It seems like a perfect system for Guild Wars, even better than Guild Wars. I'm grateful to have a Guild because otherwise I feel the rarest items would rely on Pick Up Groups and the roll of the dice which means productivity will be slow from the mammoth task of levelling professions, and, made even slower by the limited scope for gaining rarer materials at high end.

I'm not a major fan of Personal Loot, I've experienced Personal Loot in other MMOs though. The main issue I see is limited item drops and crafted items matching the best tiers of weapons. How to get the resources required remains a hot topic. How to maintain the highest grade weapons remains a hot topic. We should all find decent Guilds to have the best experience. Even with a top end Guild your kills could be contested.

Edit: Spelling mistakes.

Frostshot1

Yeah the looting and resources in general is concerning. I hope that it turns out for the best and we are all pleasantly surprised. But until the game goes live and we see how the drop rates work, it is all guessing.

Child Item