Bulwark on the Battlefield - Tank Alpha One Preview

🏰 Will you be the bulwark on the battlefield? 🛡

Meet the Tank, bastion of bravery, in our Alpha One preview: https://ashesofcreation.com/news/2021-02-09-bulwark-on-the-battlefield-tank-alpha-one-preview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZkkVKZ64Ns

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Comments

Songcaller

I'm ambivalent about Lacerate. It reminds me of Age of Conan's Fatality System which I loved. The issue is, lacerate isn't a finisher move, and, unlike Age of Conan, The Tank doesn't retrieve the blade after lacerate.

Vhaeyne

My general thoughts.

Weapon toss... be Thor.
Bulwark... be Captain America.
Ultimate Defense... "Flame On!"
Javelin... Be Scorpion.
Lacerate... Holster weapon.
Myrmidon... up, up, down.
Onslaught... Turbo mode.
Shockwave... Why is there lava?
Resounding Smash... More fire and lava...

Nothing is bad. I think the fire is a bit much, but that is just personal taste.
there could be a weapon return animation for both Lacerate and Weapon Toss.

I think everyone will agree that Javelin is the best. If they don't they were not playing video games in the 90s.

Pvp player

Out of all the classes I think this last one is definitely the best.
I especially like Onslaught, Shockwave and Resounding Smash. Simple movements.

Now for some criticism:

Personally, I think slow deliberate movements fit a "Tank" better than 3 hits so fast that they seem to lack frames in between (Myrmidon).

I'm exaggerating to make a point now but this tank looks like a ballerina in some of the animations (Lacerate).

Again, there seems to be a lot of what some other commenter called "fireworks effects".
I hope this is just because it's easy to program.
Not much class identity if every class has the same effects.

Songcaller

The skills all have a static feel. If it wasn't for Javelin (Mortal Combat Skill revamped) I would seriously think Tanks would be decimated by the mobile classes (Haven't seen a mobile class yet but in some of the videos they mention 'super mobile classes'). I don't know what the fascination is with Levitation. Even the Tank has moves with jumps and weird movement. The combat looks static except for levitation/twirls/twist and janky movement. To top it all off, the invulnerability slows the Tank which would be a god send for a Mobile Class in PvP.

I'm aware there needs to be revamps, polish and further iterations. I can only comment at this point and continue to comment at further points. Its like the skills have been gathered from Multiple Sources and Amalgamated without the real substance or flare. Particle Effects are just fluff like in BDO. I start to wonder if mobile classes will even exist. The charge has a delay (Not sure if it can be interrupted or not) and 'charges up' before the charge effect.

Janky movement is an issue because of UE4, I feel sorry for the Devs who have to rectify the issue with UE4. UE4 has gorgeous environments but the character models are bland, janky and somehow detached/lacking actual contact. I get freaked out because 'Combat Updates' can mean anything. 'Polish later' can mean anything. If the combat updates all revolve around enhancing what we have, and, then polish what we have then problems will arise.

Combat is an integral part of MMO - especially a PvP MMOs. It won't be fun to be static beneath a Castle Wall. It might be nice to be static on the castle wall but it should be player activation, not forced activation. I really can't wait for March to see what the Devs have revamped after In-House testing. It is difficult to give anything other than perception based feedback with an NDA in tow. By all means, find inspiration but improve the iterations, don't downgrade the iterations.

Hjerim

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think everyone will agree that Javelin is the best. If they don't they were not playing video games in the 90s.

The skill is excellent, but the floating rocks during the casting needs to go. They are really unnecessary and out of place - don't you agree?

Vhaeyne

Hjerim wrote: »

The skill is excellent, but the floating rocks during the casting needs to go. They are really unnecessary and out of place - don't you agree?

I had to re-watch it to make sure I was not crazy. Yep, I just did not notice them. That ruins the whole thing.

Less is more, KISS, ect...

Things are just too over the top. Do y'all want weebs? because that is how you get weebs. UwU

Songcaller

Another issue with the tank from a tank's perspective. If most of the moves generate threat, then, how do you aggro swap or work with an off-tank? If you have more than one tank in a raid how does the threat work? Does a main tank even exist when multiple tanks are in a raid? Will aggro swaps happen off-the-cuff or can they be planned? Will the PvE Raids even need Aggro Swapping?

Favst

The tank presented in the video looks like a combination of several classes, which gives the impression of a slightly less class diversity that I expected from this game. Tank should have a strictly defined role in the team, most of his skills should focus on survival and distracting opponents from teammates. What is presented here shows the tank as a warrior whose speed of attacks is sometimes bizarre (Myrmidon)
wielding fire magic (Shockwave, Resounding Smash), having a skill that provides him with temporary immortality at a relatively low level, which in my opinion should be reserved for high-level characters (Ultimate Defense). Weapon Toss would look better without that jump, because what is it supposed to look like when chasing someone? It should also apply slow effects (though I suppose it will depend on augments).
I don't understand these floating stones when doing Javelin, the skill itself looks nice. Lacerate - a sword stuck in the head(???). Myrmidon is an absurd skill that does not fit the role of a tank. Onslaught look good.

I'm waiting for the Rogue presentation.

Mowaby

Neurath wrote: »

Another issue with the tank from a tank's perspective. If most of the moves generate threat, then, how do you aggro swap or work with an off-tank? If you have more than one tank in a raid how does the threat work? Does a main tank even exist when multiple tanks are in a raid? Will aggro swaps happen off-the-cuff or can they be planned? Will the PvE Raids even need Aggro Swapping?

An off tank could just not go as hard as the main tank and when there needs to be a swap then the off tank taunts and the main tank slows or stops using threat skills and the off tank goes HAM. I am not sure if swapping will be needed either but people can figure it out if it is a thing.

Songcaller

The issue would relate to threat tables. Now, if there is aggro and threat - threat being for tanks and aggro being general, then the swap can occur rather naturally, but if the threat and aggro are combined then the highest DPS Nuker would be second in the aggro list. If the primary threat source (Main Tank for example) releases the threat generation and drops from first place in the list, then the mob/boss would latch on to the second person in the list (Damage Dealer).

It is a real pain in the ass because to swap aggro, everyone would have to slow aggression/threat generation for a new tank to reach pole position in the aggro tables. It would take immense skill and DPS Meters for two tanks to throttle threat generation with only threat generation skills so they take 1st and 2nd places in the aggro table. We won't have DPS Meters, the skill ceiling will be pretty high which lures me with promises of steel and glory.

In other MMOs the tanks would have high agitation and a taunt. The taunt could catapult tanks to the top of the aggro list but the tank currently has no taunt (Could be added later levels though). Sometimes I feel as if everything is designed in isolation.

Thank you for your input, I love to discuss theory crafting

Maezriel

Percival wrote: »

The tank presented in the video looks like a combination of several classes

I feel the same way for Mage and even Cleric, to an extent.

It might be that the Secondary Archetype is what's intended to build your niche?

Arugan

General Comment:
First I would like to say how excited and impressed I am with the development team! Incredible work! I am a tank main and this gives me hope that the tank class won't be boring.

Note:
- Understand this is still Alpha 1 and a lot of fine-tuning is still in the works. (But combat in a game is what makes or breaks a lot of MMORPG, so I hope it flows nicely)
- As mentioned by Steve and the team, all effects can be turned down by the user. (So there is no harm of having every move being flash and big)

Idea/Confirmation:
-Have the tank moves look normal, but when the sub/second class is chosen let the effect change to merge together
-So each tank archetype will look different, a tree/nature tank, a lava tank, an ice tank, etc..

Example:
--- Argent, have the moves show music or song type animation. Axe throw with sound, a shield bash with sound waves
--- Spell Shield, have an axe throw with fire, or a chain grab with lava, a charge with ice, and the slams with lava
--- Warden, have a tree/nature effects to all your moves.
-- Nightshield, have shadow and darkness effects on all your moves.

-Similar to how the City of heroes was. You picked a tank but then can be an ice tank and slam the floor and ice shards pierced the ground. Or had fire breath etc.

Final Statement:
I am not sure if this is the plan for the effects and class creation. If so... that will be amazing!!!!!! If not I am still super hyped for the game and it's probably my only and last hope for MMORPG.(No pressure lol)

Mushin

ehhh threads got merged

Asgerr

I went looking for this video which in my opinion could serve as a good reference for the "weight" and "power" and grounded feeling we might want from a tanky class. These of course can be applied to fighter skills as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk0Qff50RcQ&ab_channel=SecondObjective

Songcaller

Loved the video. If The Devs could emulate the concepts instead of the inspiration from 5 or more Amalgamations, I'd play tank. Thanks for the share

Edit: Except the shield bashes. I prefer the current shield punches the devs have given Tank.

Mushin

Asgerr wrote: »

I went looking for this video which in my opinion could serve as a good reference for the "weight" and "power" and grounded feeling we might want from a tanky class. These of course can be applied to fighter skills as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk0Qff50RcQ&ab_channel=SecondObjective

When I first played Dragon's Dogma the combat felt goddamn amazing. Looking at the video, it still looks great. Honestly when I saw the trailer of AOC when it first came out, I was hoping that combat was like Dragon's.

Hjerim

Asgerr wrote: »

I went looking for this video which in my opinion could serve as a good reference for the "weight" and "power" and grounded feeling we might want from a tanky class. These of course can be applied to fighter skills as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk0Qff50RcQ&ab_channel=SecondObjective

Absolutely 100% agree with this. Very good reference!

Corpier

I'd like to say thank you for the great video and new information about the tank class. Also, that both the animation and effects of the skills look excellent for early alpha.

However, there are two skills that I think could be improved/clarified.

Firstly, the Bulwark skill which "strikes your target and increases your block chance, generating additional threat" The mention of a "block chance" has me curious about how tanking will work. In the Apoc pre-alpha action combat test, blocking was manual and active. Is this going to be the case in the MMO or will it be automatic and triggered by percentage chance to block an attack? If active blocking is going to be possible, then it may be a good idea to have the skill increase the amount of damage mitigation while blocking instead of increasing the chance to block.

Secondly, regarding the same Bulwark skill, I think the animation of the second shield bash would look better if the swing were wider. I loved the animation of the first swing, but the second bash didn't extend very far and does not look like it would connect with targets. It looks more like the character is quickly raising their shield to defend than trying to smack a target with the shield. Having a broader swing on the second bash would improve the appearance of the skill in my opinion.

Lastly, I did not like how the Lacerate skill's animation had the player appear to disarm themself by abandoning their weapon after stabbing it into an enemy. I thought the animation of jamming a weapon into an enemy was great, but I don't think leaving it embedded is very immersive or realistic. I'm not usually a stickler for realism in fantasy, but I think having a the character violently pull the weapon out of their enemy after stabbing them would feel more visceral and satisfying. (And it wouldn't leave players wondering where their character is getting infinite swords to sheathe in their enemies.)

Again, I'd like to say I loved the video and think these first skills for the tank class look great. Most of what was shown exceeded my expectation for early alpha stage, and I just wanted to express my few personal concerns.

Arugan

Hjerim wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think everyone will agree that Javelin is the best. If they don't they were not playing video games in the 90s.

The skill is excellent, but the floating rocks during the casting needs to go. They are really unnecessary and out of place - don't you agree?

I think additional animations should be part of the augments when you select your second class. So if you choose spellshield it will be a fire scorpion mortal combat feel.

McMackMuck

Overall opinion. It looks really good for Alpha.

I think the fire effects are used in too many places, when physical damage should probably look like metal flashes, shockwaves or blood splatter depending on the core reason for the ability.

Because the devs won't benefit from me sucking up to them I've tried to be highly critical here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e2kj_XOTJHoAeqk5BlLvp01MnFq0PNkX/view?usp=sharing
The above is the kind of standard that I would hope to see in the released game.

I can recommend slowing the video down to x0.25 so that you can see the issue with fluidity of abilities with two or three hit combos. I can understand that you may be stringing single attacks together to make a combo, but the big pauses and abrupt changes in attack pattern look a little strange at normal speed and plain awkward/clunky in slo mo.

Great work, I hope you find the feedback helpful.
Mac

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