A complementary leveling system beyond level cap?

Will this game have a secondary leveling system beyond the initial level cap?
I will give an example :
Bob reaches level cap and can now start leveling his ''Paragon'' level from 1 to 999. Very simple
The name Paragon i just made up, please just work with me here.
Paragon level will not be tied to progression and is a standalone leveling system from character level.
This has been done in other games and i would like to see it in Ashes of Creation too.

With the AOC experience being as open and dynamic as it is, this system would introduce even more reasons to keep playing in order to progress and show off your experience in the game after your character reached level cap. I will even throw in an additional idea of adding rewards to these ''Paragon levels'' To give more interest for players to level it up. but that's another story.

Has this ever been discussed?
How do you guys feel about it.

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Comments

MitchoMan

Note i do not intend to promote this system as a replacement for expansions and character level cap increases. It's a ''complementary'' system as the title of this post states.

Frostshot1

I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

Dreoh

Frostshot wrote: »

I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

This is another thing that makes GW2 my favourite MMO of all time. They only add horizontal advancement when expansions or updates come. They've only increased gear power/tiers once and that was with Ascended gear, and ascended gear is only as strong as the previously existing Legendary gear.

I detest with a passion the constant push of better gear that games like WoW and others do. All the work you put in to polishing your stats is useless in a year when they add yet another tier of gear. It's completely ridiculous. Not to mention how in WoW gear rarity has become bloated and they hand out epics like candy, where in vanilla/classic an epic was an achievement.

MitchoMan

Frostshot wrote: »

I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

No, my idea is that it's not tied to progression. I should have said gear progression. That's what i meant

MitchoMan

Dreoh wrote: »

Frostshot wrote: »

I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

This is another thing that makes GW2 my favourite MMO of all time. They only add horizontal advancement when expansions or updates come. They've only increased gear power/tiers once and that was with Ascended gear, and ascended gear is only as strong as the previously existing Legendary gear.

I detest with a passion the constant push of better gear that games like WoW and others do. All the work you put in to polishing your stats is useless in a year when they add yet another tier of gear. It's completely ridiculous. Not to mention how in WoW gear rarity has become bloated and they hand out epics like candy, where in vanilla/classic an epic was an achievement.

The system i explained is similair to how GW2 did it. And those levels werent tied to gear or anything either.

bigepeen

I think there will already be a lot of horizontal progression in the game without the need for a secondary character level. I recommend checking out the artisan system, node progression, mayoral system, and legendary flying mounts, if you're worried about showing off your epeen.

MitchoMan

Alright appreciate the helpfulness in trying to introduce me to this game and explain things but i really already know pretty much everything. I'm new to the forums but not the game xD

bloodprophet

Welcome to the forums.
There was a recent thread about this.

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/266164#Comment_266164

Part way down I linked a video with time stamp as to Intrepid's answer.

Merek

Sounds like the Champion system from ESO, that was recently nerfed into the ground. I wouldn't mind if there was a tree tied into your characters religion that gave you benefits, but I worry about adding post-cap trees because the idea of a nerf after thousands of hours of work is mind numbing.

Talents

There is nothing like this planned for Ashes. Once you hit 50, you're max level until they raise the level cap.

Noaani

As something of a top end player in most games I play, I am not a fan of this idea.

The point of having a cap to available progression is to keep players somewhat close together in over all power.

All this system would do is mean that players with more time not only had better gear, but had higher paragon level than someone with lower levels. This just increases the ceiling for getting in to to end content effectively (with top end content in Ashes including sieges,as well as PvEactivities).

I am a huge fan of always having some form of worthwhile character progression available to every player, but I don't consider progression via pure grind to be a good way to do this

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

It would be nice if, instead of creating supplementary level elements as a game system, there was a mechanism that could reflect the player's own knowledge and experience!

And I keep whispering, "Please introduce that into crafting." ......lol

Volgaire

I feel like I would quickly start disliking this Paragon progression, I hope Ashes will be a game engaging enough where I won't have to resort to grinding some Paragon level for rewards instead of focusing on enjoying all the other content the has to offer.

Kionashi

horizontal progression is always better than vertical progression

Noaani

Kionashi wrote: »

horizontal progression is always better than vertical progression

I 100% disagree with this statement.

Horizontal progression isn't progression, it is picking up new things. If horizontal progression were that great - or if Intrepid thought it were better than vertical progression - we would be able to level up all 10 archetypes as primaries.

arsnn

Well this topic revolves around 2 of the biggest issues that the genre faces.
Firstly a diminishing player base, due to lack of progression and content in the late stage of the service.
Secondly the widening powergap in the playerbase (even with diminishing returns) associated with infinite progression systems.

Games like bdo only persist because of their plenty vertical progression grind systems, this game is glorified gear threadmill with nice t*ts. Games like GW2 with a lot of horizontal progression require a lot of added content in form of expansions and the living world thingy.

Ashes will have to position themselves somewhere inbetween those extremes. A „secondary progression“ path , as you call it would be an easy way to handle it, but it’s a lazy solution that comes with problems.

I‘d pref that they further explore the option of shared progression gated content, what they plan on doing with their node system.
This approach essentially gates new content behind the progress of the players on the server.
Everytime they reach a certain threshold that players worked towards, like node level 4, new content will infuse additional vertical progression that has diminishing returns once they hit the next roadblock to level 5.
So that the progression curve is not straight up asymptotic, it rather follows a pattern of several asymptomatic bumps that keep the playerbase close together, but still allows for repeated rushes of progression. Unfortunately the nodes are limited in their scope, when they reach the max level.
But this can also be done outside of the node system, for example with boses that gate entire dungeon systems for the server to explore. I think they hinted at that with their recent dev discussion "Boss difficulty-
Do you enjoy "gatekeeper" bosses -".

Optimally they would have a look at how the anime SAO did it with their tower that had like 100 layers. Ye... i know SAO... shit anime, i liked some of their ideas though.
In this case how progress raiders/front line players were tasked with slaying the boss of each layer, so that the entirity of the server can access the next layer, with new mobs, ressources and a fresh area to explore.

This allowed for an interesting dynamic where guilds did send, their best players to those frontline raids, and crafters and gatheres did their best to equip the players with the new stuff that they would get, from guilds that farmed the mobs of the new planes.

TheHiddenDaggerInn

I'm really hoping so, religious, and guild stuff is fine, but as a player I would like something to work on myself. To me this is what made DAoC great was once you were level capped, getting your realm ranks through PvP could literally take years.

Now what would be more interesting is taking a system like that and doing it for PvP, Crafting, and even Dungeon crawlers. So you get some kind of end game experience in whichever field you choose to progress, and maybe even make you choose which path you would like to continue.

Offering maybe a special perk or ability to unlock, or extra stats something of meaning along with titles.

Virulent

NO! I will not play this game if there is a paragon level type system.

Gannito

n the lineage, the first class of the character and the second are uploaded. Making both classes extremely difficult to push to the limit.

In addition, experience is lost with each death, both against npc and in wars against clans and alliances.

And the latter makes the issue of leveling up go into nightmare mode.

djhifi

Frostshot wrote: »

I would prefer that they never raise the level cap at all. Raising level cap causes issues with power creep, balancing, and eventually stat squishes.

That said, AoC will have multiple other areas of advancement involved, guild system, religion systems. I'm not an expert on all this stuff but you can read through the wiki and learn what we know so far.

Vertical progression (for example: level cap increase, champion xp of some sort, gear item level increase, etc, etc) will ALWAYS be better than horizontal progression because you will get to a point where the game seems stalled and everyone will eventually burnout.

Even if people say they won't, thats just an illusion.

So definitely +1 here for vertical progression over horizontal.

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