How to prevent aquatic mounts from making ships obsolete?

Considering how fast aquatic mounts seems to be, Im afraid wasting money and resources on ships would be pointless

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But why discourage Animal Husbandry of aquatic mounts just for Shipbuilding?

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

Voidwalkers

??? I'm getting confused, and fail to see what's all the fuzz about now.

Aquatic mounts & ships exist for different purposes, I don't even see the need to compare the two and claim which one is "better".

Sure, aquatic mounts are more nimble, probably cheaper & easier to acquire (just guessing), can be used solo and hence more convenient -- when your goal is to TRAVEL the seas. Travel, only.

But apparently there're a shit ton of stuff that can only be done with ships, a good chunk of them being group contents:
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ships

And the "Ships in Ashes will be weak against mounted players coz that's the case in another game" argument is nothing but irrelevant. Ashes and Archeage are different games, they CAN have different mechanics, different implementations, and different game balance regarding naval battles. And, frankly, we don't know much about naval battles in Ashes yet. Who knows if the devs won't give each ship an "I win" button that simply kills all mounted hostile players nearby instantly?

Let's wait for more details before trying to claim "ships are crap" again. For now I see no reason that mounts will make ships obsolete or vice versa. They have different purposes, they excel at different tasks, they can and WILL coexist.

Virulent

Aquatic mounts will never be as fast as ships. There is little protection on them. You will never in your right mind transit blue water on an aquatic mount. You could, for shits and giggles, to say that you did, but you will only waste your time.

Aquatic mounts are for short transit time, think, rivers, lakes, ponds. As well as underwater exploration, which there will be a significant amount of underwater content.

Aquatic mounts will never take away from the tasks and usages of ships, they supplement them in their usage.

It's a toolbox, you reach into the box and use the right tool for the job. Would you summon a Galleon to cross over a lake you find yourself wanting to cross? No, you would not, in fact, you CAN'T. As to summon ships you need an established shipyard that's part of a coastal node. So, seems like an aquatic mount would be very handy.

Aquatic mounts will not hurt ship building profession, the same way ships do not hurt animal husbandry. They do different things for different purposes.

I say this with no disrespect, it's an observation, but it seems like those concerned with aquatic mounts, or who don't like them? wtf?, are individuals who do not fully understand these systems in the game. I would encourage learning more about the game, and working towards comprehending it, before criticizing it or jumping to conclusions and proclaiming there to be major flaws in the system.

Warth

Jam21 wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

. Why should it not be faster in-game? If you give all the benefits to the boats, then aquatic mounts become irrelevant.
.

Because Archeage already shown how this (mounts/summoned single pilot "rides" being better than the ships) can break the game balance. Why build ship when you can just all ride mounts?

They mounts should be slower than ships - and don't worry, they will still be used. Because solo players or new players also want to travel the seas. There is no reason they should have to save for a ship to do so - but there is also no reason for their mounts to be faster than ships.

In Archeage, at start people used donkeys and boats to solo travel and move cargo even when they hadn't had a trimaran ship. That was a slow way, but in encouraged people to save res and build their ships. But then devs there added various "aquatic premium mounts", such as Jetski, Motorboat and Dolphin. And this basically killed usage of normal ships.

This may have been justifable in AA, at that stage an old game with shrinking playerbase. But in AoC, at start, there would be plenty of players to man even big ships. No reason to make water mounts OP and discourage shipbuilding.

in AA, the aquatic mounts cash shop mounts were overtuned, because it was just one of many very simple way of making the playerbase spend money which, in the end, was what AA was all about. They were actively interested in selling these advantagous things in the cash shop, which is why they were that overtuned in the first place.

This doesn't translate in any way into AoC though. The developers do not have a vested interest in making them a must-have as they do not profit from it at all.

In the Topic of Aquatic Mounts vs. Ships it comes down to one simple thing: Balance.
At this point in time, assuming that one will be downright better than the other, based on no game related information at all, is pure speculation.

Its quite curious to see, that some people on these forums seems to have nothing better to do than thinking about all the things Intrepid could possibily do wrong. They must be either very bored or have a severe lack of faith in Intrepid. Either way, here's a hint. Everything that requires some sort of balance can be severely fucked up by Intrepid. Is it worth discussing until they have fucked up that balance or at least stated their intend though? Certainly not.

Kionashi

Warth wrote: »

Its quite curious to see, that some people on these forums seems to have nothing better to do than thinking about all the things Intrepid could possibily do wrong. They must be either very bored or have a severe lack of faith in Intrepid. Either way, here's a hint. Everything that requires some sort of balance can be severely fucked up by Intrepid. Is it worth discussing until they have fucked up that balance or at least stated their intend though? Certainly not.

I prefer people pointing out what could go wrong now that we are in Alpha and everything is subject to change instead of having faith and waiting until Intrepid falls in that pit when we were in Beta and with little room to correct course.

Warth

literally everything could go wrong

Noaani

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

I'm not sure about this.

Current sail boats (specifically the AC75 class) are sailing up to speeds of just shy of 100kph. This is with 11 people on board.

While there are some fish that can swim faster than that - though only slightly - I can't find any informaiton on fish speed while carrying a passanger.

Warth

Noaani wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

I'm not sure about this.

Current sail boats (specifically the AC75 class) are sailing up to speeds of just shy of 100kph. This is with 11 people on board.

While there are some fish that can swim faster than that - though only slightly - I can't find any informaiton on fish speed while carrying a passanger.

@Noaani would you mind quoting accurately?

maouw

Warth = Davey?

News to me.

daveywavey

maouw wrote: »

Warth = Davey?

News to me.

Warth is my alt-account.

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

I'm not sure about this.

Current sail boats (specifically the AC75 class) are sailing up to speeds of just shy of 100kph. This is with 11 people on board.

While there are some fish that can swim faster than that - though only slightly - I can't find any informaiton on fish speed while carrying a passanger.

I mean, there's still time for Intrepid to incorporate a hydrofoiled racing craft into the game, but from what we've seen so far, they're going along the lines of the classic masted sail ship approach.

Given that current mounts include a giant snail, we can assume that Verra's creatures are stronger and more able than Earth's, which would imply that Verra's sea creatures will be more than capable of carrying a passenger.

Noaani

Warth wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

I'm not sure about this.

Current sail boats (specifically the AC75 class) are sailing up to speeds of just shy of 100kph. This is with 11 people on board.

While there are some fish that can swim faster than that - though only slightly - I can't find any informaiton on fish speed while carrying a passanger.

Noaani would you mind quoting accurately?

I could, but information on speeds of both AC75 and the fastest ocean creature are fairly easy to find, using sources that you trust.

The thing is, if you want to go as far as having cited sources, ones that are accurate and not estimates, then the fastest ocean creature I can find a speed for (you may find a measured speed faster, but I haven't) is actually only 75kph - slower than current sail boats.

daveywavey wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Warth wrote: »

And the reason for aquatic mounts to be faster than ships is because sea creatures are faster than sail ships.

I'm not sure about this.

Current sail boats (specifically the AC75 class) are sailing up to speeds of just shy of 100kph. This is with 11 people on board.

While there are some fish that can swim faster than that - though only slightly - I can't find any informaiton on fish speed while carrying a passanger.

I mean, there's still time for Intrepid to incorporate a hydrofoiled racing craft into the game, but from what we've seen so far, they're going along the lines of the classic masted sail ship approach.

Given that current mounts include a giant snail, we can assume that Verra's creatures are stronger and more able than Earth's, which would imply that Verra's sea creatures will be more than capable of carrying a passenger.

This is absolutely 100% true.

However, I would then argue that if we are willing to assume that creatures on Verra are able top travel at speed with a passenger, we should be able to extend that suspension of belief to ships. We don't even need to extend it to the point of believing that ships powered by sail go faster than they do in real life, only that they don't need hydrofoils to go that fast.

Warth

@Noaani

i don't think you get what i meant.
You quoted me on something i never said. It's Davey who said that. Please fix.

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

Whoa!
I think this is a bit risky logic for @Noaani -san.💦

I agree with your initial logic that aquatic mounts are not likely to threaten the existence value of ships.
This is because the cargo they can carry, naval battles, and other factors are much different.

However, the example you just gave of speed is only in the real world, isn't it?
If an aquatic mount is slower than a ship, I honestly think the only advantage it has is the possibility of being the first to get it.😖

In other words, there is a danger that no one will have an aquatic mount except for collectors.

Assuming that even the speed is inferior to the ship, I feel like we could be arguing about whether we even need an aquatic mount in the first place!😱

Noaani

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto wrote: »

Assuming that even the speed is inferior to the ship, I feel like we could be arguing about whether we even need an aquatic mount in the first place!😱

That is basically what I said earlier in this thread.

Noaani wrote: »

After spending a few years in Archeage with their naval content and ocean mounts, my concern is more along the lines of whether Intrepid will be able to make a place at all for ocean mounts, not the other way around.

The issue at hand is not in making sure ships have a purpose - ships will be the go-to. The issue at hand should be making sure aquatic mounts have a purpose, as there isn't an immediately obvious purpose for them.

WhitneyHagasMatsumoto

@Noaani -san
Oh, I see.
I'm sorry.

I guess I was too fixed in my thinking by the title of the thread……

In that sense, maybe there should be a thread discussing the need for an aquatic mount!

Either way, though, it would have to be fast enough to have a need for it.

And my hope, without reason, is that it should be faster than the ship, because I want an aquatic mount for the sake of romance. lol

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