Would it be good if downed state gets into Ashes?

Hello everyone!

I thought I would start a topic about if it's a good idea to implement "downed state" into Ashes, when we are seriously injured. This is not a new thing in MMOs, Guild Wars 2 has it already. GW2 had a lot of new and great mechanics when it released, like awesome dodging, a great skill system and the downed state. I think downed state would fit Ashes with a few modifications.

My opinion about how to do it:

- if you're down, you have 10 seconds to get back to your feet with the help of an ally, and your HP gets lower and lower during this time like if you have a DOT, maybe represented in a different color than normally
- we wouldn't need skills attached to the downed state, like in GW2, it would mean more work for the devs and it's unnecessary, it doesn't give that much value to the gameplay
- downed state would work in PvE and PvP, giving an extra dimension to battles
- being brought back from downed state by an ally would give us 15% HP by default, but clerics would be able to "raise" from a distance and they would give more HP with that
- when downed we would be able to slowly crawl on the ground
- we wouldn't be able to "raise" ourselves, or only with a very unique and hard-to-get skill
- if we skip the process during raising someone, we would need to start it over and the victim would continue to bleed out
- raising someone would not be interruptable with normal skills, or most of them, only with CC skills, this would be logical

I think downed state would bring an extra dimension to gameplay, as dodge did long ago (and dodge is used almost everywhere nowadays). Downed state is also getting into more and more games and it gives extra fun in PvE and PvP everywhere.

What do you think? Would it be good if downed state gets into Ashes?

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Comments

Mahes

NO NO NO to the Downed State system of resurrection.

It is a cop out for balancing content for programmers.Programmers can make bosses that are incredibly difficult to take down without dying and not have to balance it if a Down State exists. I hated that I would take bosses on that would insta stun and then kill me, but it was ok cause I just got ressed back up. All the fight became was, how long could I stay up and do DPS for, before getting knocked back down. It is one of the annoying parts of Guildwars 2. A fight should have serious consequences that does not require me to stop fighting just to get to a player and res them.....when I am DPS.

Please do not consider implementing that kind of system. If I die....I lost the fight.

JamesSunderland

I dislike it , i find it unreasonable and kinda diminishes the value of Healers Resurrection.

Leonerdo

In PvE, downed states (like resurrections abilities) exist to allow players to make mistakes and recover from them, within limits.

The potential issues with downed states are:

They can be too forgiving, too often, such that fights are really easy unless they have really punishing one-shot mechanics.
They can give the illusion of recovery, but actually just prolong an unavoidable wipe.
They can create bumpy game-flow. If a hard fight results in a ton of downed players and being picked up constantly -- even if the fight is appropriately challenging and heart-pumping, and you can still win with a ton of downs -- it's just annoying to play that way.
Commonly, it is the healer's responsibility to recover people's mistakes (within limits) and resurrect teammates, and both healers and DPS might enjoy the game more with that separation of responsibility. So having DPS picking up downed teammates would feel wrong to some.

I think those potential issues can be addressed, but it's not worth it for most games. I think GW2 does it well, and it was needed because they didn't have dedicated healers with rezzes. GW2 was fun. Fight me.

Having downed states is probably not necessary in AoC though. (I know, I know, why did I waste all that time talking about it if I don't think it's worth putting in AoC? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

The thing I'm most worried about for AoC, is if Clerics are the only archetype that can rezz, and there's only going to be 1 of them in an 8-player party, and the Cleric dies.... it's an instant wipe. If the Cleric can erase other people's mistakes, there should be a way to resurrect the Cleric as well (albeit more scarce/expensive?)

In my opinion, of course. Maybe there's some healer mains out there who like taking on all that responsibility and personal risk.

[Deleted User]

Thank you very much everyone for your opinions, you have written very good ideas on the subject.

Voidwalkers

Scion: Shoots an ultimate fire-enchanted arrow at target. Hits. Arrow explodes & blows the target's heart into pieces, leaving a gaping hole in the target's chest. Target takes damage roughly 10x his remaining hp, and "dies".

Target: Downs, starts crawling around: "help, someone raise me plz"

Nope.

Dreoh

I will say people are misconstruing what killing someone is in a system with downed states.

An enemy is only dead when they are dead. Downing them is not "killing them". Any complaints you're having about "killing them and them not being dead" is just not true nor is it a good argument.

For one, sure it means second chance but so do you. It's not actually unfair. (Edit: Class balance notwithstanding)

It's the opposite thinking of how people used to think Nobushi in For Honor was overpowered because the bleed would kill you after you thought you were safe, and people thought that was crazy unfair and would get unjustly mad and tilted. The reality was that once they let the bleed get applied to a certain point they were already dead and should have realized that from the beginning. If they had adjusted their mindset and kept the bleed in mind, and making sure they didn't get hit by bleed attacks they wouldn't have had so much trouble.
Instead they just let the the low-damage-but-high-bleed attacks hit them because they don't seem strong in the moment and whined because they died to the bleed.

It's the same with your downed state complaints. Instead of thinking you should be alive like in For Honor, you're thinking they should be dead, but you're setting yourself up for anger by not adjusting your mindset to the game you're playing.

Personally I don't think downed states will fit with AoC, but I had to point that out because half of you complaining aren't making a good argument.

Edit: It reminds me of when Summit1G was trying to get good at GW2 pvp but would get crazy tilted because he kept forgetting downed state exists. He wouldn't even utilize his own downed state because he would forget or just didn't like it instead of learning to play the systems he was playing. He went in with the mindset of a different game and got upset because he was losing (the reason being he wasn't playing like it was GW2)

Edit2: Nobody complains about downed states in BR games like Apex. It's because MMO's don't traditionally have downed state that people aren't used to it and aren't adjusting their mindset.

Jxshuwu

This is a bad idea, there's some games where you kill a person in a party, and as you're fighting that same party he manages to return to the battlefield in full health and full mana. Sometimes dying early on could even give you an advantage. I dislike this, when killing someone, you should be rewarded with their inevitable death. Because you won the fight, and he lost it, it'd be weird if he could just get back up bc they have a healer.

Sea of thieves is a good example, my party of two would take down a ship with a party of four. But they'd keep respawning which was very tedious, when we already won the fight and are trying to take the spoils of war. Luckily there was ways to work around it if you were good enough, but i didnt like the system.

Dreoh

Jxshuwu wrote: »

This is a bad idea, there's some games where you kill a person in a party, and as you're fighting that same party he manages to return to the battlefield in full health and full mana. Sometimes dying early on could even give you an advantage. I dislike this, when killing someone, you should be rewarded with their inevitable death. Because you won the fight, and he lost it, it'd be weird if he could just get back up bc they have a healer.

See my post directly above yours, it's exactly what I was talking about. If you want them to be dead, finish them off, don't make the mistake of thinking they're dead and having shockedpikachuface.jpg when they actually aren't. Adapt to the game you're playing.

Jxshuwu wrote: »

... there's some games where you kill a person ...

This right here is where you are wrong. They aren't "killed" if they are downed.

If you didn't finish them off and they had time to rez, heal and come back to kill you that's your fault.

Jxshuwu wrote: »

Sea of thieves is a good example, my party of two would take down a ship with a party of four. But they'd keep respawning which was very tedious, when we already won the fight and are trying to take the spoils of war. Luckily there was ways to work around it if you were good enough, but i didnt like the system.

This is a different scenario and I've actually also argued that SoT respawn system was very flawed on their subreddit many times. It's not the same thing as a downed state though and not a good analogy.
In the SoT example, they ARE actually dead, but just respawning quickly. That's NOT what a downed state is.

Edit: (Pre-emptive disclaimer again) I'm not advocating for downed states in AoC, I'm just saying that argument (because so many of you are using it) is not a good or accurate one. If we're not using legit arguments, how can we expect a legit system.

Jxshuwu

I just woke up, my sentences prob wont make sense so bear with me.

@Dreoh I didnt read all comments, i just gave my take on the main post. When will you be downed? When your hp bar hits 0 or close to it? I do think it could add something extra in pvp but make at the same time, it would make pve a breeze would it not?

You said ''Any complaints you're having about "killing them and them not being dead" is just not true nor is it a good argument.'' - I think a complaint in terms of a game, is always a good argument. If players don't like something, they complain, and that shows that something may not be good about the system. One player isn't credible, a bunch of them definitely is.

You're telling people to just ''adjust'' their mindset'' if it were to get added, but if that's not what people want, it would be a stupid thing to add. I personally just believe it could cause frustrating gameplay, i understand that if i dont finish the downed player off, its my fault! BUT it'd still be frustrating and annoying gameplay, when a health bar hits 0, i want it to be 0. How summit1g reacted is completely justified, because its a frustrating feature to some. If it isn't for others, good for you but for many it probably will be.

Dreoh

Jxshuwu wrote: »

I didnt read all comments, i just gave my take on the main post. When will you be downed? When your hp bar hits 0 or close to it? I do think it could add something extra in pvp but make at the same time, it would make pve a breeze would it not?

GW2 has challenging PvE content and it has downed states.

Jxshuwu wrote: »

You said ''Any complaints you're having about "killing them and them not being dead" is just not true nor is it a good argument.'' - I think a complaint in terms of a game, is always a good argument. If players don't like something, they complain, and that shows that something may not be good about the system. One player isn't credible, a bunch of them definitely is.

For one, it's wrong because they aren't dead. You never killed them. Your statement and argument isn't accurate from the get go.

And sure sometimes people complain about things that are actually bad. But just because a lot of people have an opinion on something doesn't make that opinion correct. Don't fall into that logical fallacy.

There's whole populations of racists, doesn't mean racism is a valid opinion.
A huge population of SoT thinks there should be a PvE only mode and the game would be better for it and complain incessantly about it. Doesn't mean they are right about that opinion.

Jxshuwu wrote: »

You're telling people to just ''adjust'' their mindset'' if it were to get added, but if that's not what people want, it would be a stupid thing to add. I personally just believe it could cause frustrating gameplay, i understand that if i dont finish the downed player off, its my fault! BUT it'd still be frustrating and annoying gameplay, when a health bar hits 0, i want it to be 0. How summit1g reacted is completely justified, because its a frustrating feature to some. If it isn't for others, good for you but for many it probably will be.

It's only frustrating to you, like I said, because you're playing it like it's WoW or any other game without downed states and you THINK they should be dead. You don't go into Apex and complain that the enemy isn't dead when you downed them because you know they are downed and that's part of the games mechanics. So why aren't you doing the same for downed state MMO's?

Edit: (Pre-emptive disclaimer again) I'm not advocating for downed states in AoC, I'm just saying that argument (because so many of you are using it) is not a good or accurate one. If we're not using legit arguments, how can we expect a legit conclusion.

Dreoh

I disagree with having downed states in AoC because like other people have pointed out, we have dedicated healer classes, and if we have both healers and downed states fights would take a loooong time.

bigepeen

I, too, enjoy having a state with a very limited set of actions and a very slow move speed. Also, attacking a downed opponent is totally cool and fun

bloodprophet

I don't understand why anyone thinks extended loss of character control by the development team is a good thing or considered fun.
The first time it happened to me in GW2 I was WTF.
Then it got more and more annoying everytime after. Stand me up or let me go either way get your hands off me. I want to play the game not watch a 30 second cut scene of my toon doing the hep me hep me I've fallen and can't get up dance.
All perception I'm glad they made a game you like but the system is trash all around.

Dreoh

bloodprophet wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone thinks extended loss of character control by the development team is a good thing or considered fun.
The first time it happened to me in GW2 I was WTF.
Then it got more and more annoying everytime after. Stand me up or let me go either way get your hands off me. I want to play the game not watch a 30 second cut scene of my toon doing the hep me hep me I've fallen and can't get up dance.
All perception I'm glad they made a game you like but the system is trash all around.

This is another example of the kind of argument I mentioned on the previous page.

You didn't like it because you thought it was something else, and were increasingly frustrated because it wasn't what you expected or were used to.
Instead of accepting the game was not other games and that it has it's own mechanics, you got mad and blamed the game.

It's like going into Destiny and being mad the Warlock class doesn't summon a Voidwalker because you are used to WoW warlock summoning pets, and then complaining that the Destiny Warlock sucks because of it.

Edit: I will say your loss of control argument is a legit one though, and one I can agree with for the most part

bloodprophet

Agreed on not expecting class design to be the same.
I just don't think stun lock is a good game design.

Dreoh

bloodprophet wrote: »

Agreed on not expecting class design to be the same.
I just don't think stun lock is a good game design.

That's very true, I am of the opinion that stuns are one of the worst ideas game developers ever had. Loss of control of your character goes against the basic fundamentals of playing video games. That's not to say stuns can't be useful ever, just that a stun for the sake of stun is bad.

That being said, downed state is not a stun. You still have freedom of control. In GW2 you can cast your downed abilities with no down-time. You can't move like other downed-state games yes, but you're not stunned.

bloodprophet

I disagree. Felt like a stun to me.
I don't like special abilities while laying on the ground. Either let me respawn even if it is a long run back or let me play.
I like CC's and soforth but the down system felt really really bad.
I am glad others like that play style and some one built a game for them. Just the whole product was a disappointing mess to me. I really liked most of GW1 needed better crafting and to be open world.

Yuyukoyay

I didn't like that system in Guild Wars 2 because it dictated the balance of the entire game. Plus Guild Wars 2 isn't exactly the same kind of MMO as this one. The goal when they made Guild Wars 2 was to remove the holy trinity of classes. This game is kinda using the expanded holy trinity from older MMO's.

1 way they used to get rid of the holy trinity was to make resurrection possible without a healing class. Thus the system to get up after filling the bar was introduced. Plus downed states reduce idle time so if I gotta pee it becomes harder to do so.

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