Friendly rivalry and spotting slackers with no dps/hps meters?

Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in.

That said something that worries me as a guild leader is friendly competition, for example in wow I have 2 hunters in my guild who play the same class and spec and are constantly competing with each other for top dps/performance and they love to bounce ideas off each other for rotation/talents/stat prio/etc. Without any way to measure yourself in Ashes how can they continue their friendly rivalry?

I'm also worried about how to spot and deal with slackers in my guild in Ashes since people tend to take the path of least resistance, if I have a healer that throws up a hot on the tanks and then alt tabs to watch anime during a boss fight how would I as GM know unless I'm watching everyone casting? (impossible in large group sizes). If we're wiping because of no healing going out how can I identify its the lazy healer and not slap the blame on the entire heal team? (which would suck for everyone who is really trying).

I propose a very simplified "meter" that only the group lead is able to see that just provides a breakdown of either active time casting abilities/hitting the mobs/moving around or the ability to see what spell and how often the person is pressing it just to be able to see everyone is participating or at least trying. That or allow only the group lead to see dps/hps meters. It doesn't help with the friendly competition aspect but idk what would. I'd honestly really love the option to "opt in" for dps/hps meters in specific content like only the gm/group in lead in large scale content, or anyone in small groups of 2-3, or perhaps have some ingame target dummies that display dps/hps and you can only see it there.

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Jxshuwu

That friendly rivalry gone is a small price to pay for the toxicity of thousands. I mean look at WoW, Raider.io and dps meters mean everything and it is not at all welcoming to new players.

When i first played WoW, i didnt even have addons and i got people getting mad at me in instance chat that i wasnt topping the charts as a mage or hunter.

Albion was a better experience, since you just saw everyone casting their spells and attacks, and all you had to know was that; Everyone is trying their best. And that's fine.

Noaani

Jxshuwu wrote: »

I mean look at WoW

The toxicity in WoW is a result of the way the game treats players as disposable, and so players simply carry that on.

In a game where you can boot a player from a group and have another player instantly ported to you to fill in that gap, in a game where your pool of potential group mates is not limited to your server, in a game where groups and raids are formed by the servers rather than by players, there is no real need to not be toxic towards others.

Since this is the internet, if people can get away with being toxic, they will be toxic.

Cut out those things - make it so players are not automatically found for you and ported to you to fill in gaps in your group, so that you are limited to players on your server to group with and so that players form groups themselves (and thus are able to reject toxic players), and all of a sudden, players have very solid reasons to not be so toxic towards each other.

You'll notice, none of the above even mentions combat trackers (or DPS meters, as people wrongly refer to them). This is because they have no proper place in a discussion on player toxicity.

Biccus

In a game where it's likely that your name and reputation might actually matter, I think combat trackers wouldn't cause nearly as much toxicity as people think. Noaani points out some fantastic reasons as to why WoW is in the state it's in currently. You go back years before all that and I don't think it was nearly as toxic as it is now (my experience). Also with most of the content being open world, you can't just quit a group and re queue to do the same thing as soon as it goes wrong once.

I don't even think there's much to worry about with a meta build. The content is so varied with solo PvP, caravans, sieges, guild wars, PvE.. there's no way there will be a 1 build fits all

Cypher

The worst is when players start to put a stat threshold on their party. So you go to look for a raid group and all of them say “15k damage+” or something along those lines and they look at your stats when you join and kick you if they aren’t high enough, before even starting. Because god-forbid they take 7 minutes to clear the boss instead of 5, right?

I don’t know how this relates to DPS meters but I’m for any way to reduce or prevent the above from happening in AoC.

Noaani

Cypher wrote: »

I don’t know how this relates to DPS meters but I’m for any way to reduce or prevent the above from happening in AoC.

I'm all for this not happening as well.

Problem is, if not combat trackers, people will require achievements be linked, or they will assess gear, or they will require players be a pre-selected build, or they will give players a test of some sort.

The way to stop this sort of thing isn't to remove the systems players use to assess the effectiveness, as there won't be a game left. The way to stop this kind of thing is to make it so players can't get away with this kind of behavior.

Making player reputation actually matter is the central pivot of this, and is why many of the issues that players complain about in regards to this kind of player behavior is simply not present in many games that don't automate group formation and such.

Hawkwood

DPS meters suck. Next topic.

Azryil

HixHaxxen wrote: »

DPS meters suck. Next topic.

duly noted.

Noaani

HixHaxxen wrote: »

DPS meters suck. Next topic.

People that don't understand combat trackers suck - and also generally call then DPS meters.

Percimes

The game will come with an indirect combat meters: time to kill. Not as precise as you'd all wish, but if you want to built your own charts and tables I'm sure those who like number crushing can figure something.

Design tests for your guild members. How long to kill one though mob. How long to clear a group of weaker ones. Standardize it if you want more accuracy.

More work than having all automated in an addon, but still possible.

VmanGman

Noaani wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Wasn't the design goal of MMORPGs to create a world for people to adventure in?

Having access to data doesn't preclude adventure.

@Noaani You're missing the point... Did you read the description of that person's game session? An instanced battleground where he/she has multiple data trackers on the screen at all times. That does not sound like an orc hunting in a fantasy world (or whatever other adventure you would embark on)... which is what MMORPGs were designed for. An adventure to partake in.

An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

Rhuell

Percimes wrote: »

The game will come with an indirect combat meters: time to kill.

This is definitely going to be a large part of deciding whether or not the dps are pulling their weight, though maybe not specifically who.

My question is, and i'm sorry if this is common knowledge: will players be able to adjust their augments on the fly? and by on the fly I mean in between combat scenarios.

I think being able to adjust augments after failing a section of a raid or dungeon, and giving it another go with a slightly different, potentially more effective set up would alleviate a lot of the pressure people may feel to run with the meta. A meta that I see encompassing many possibilities because of the complexity of the archetypes and augments.

For example: I join up with a group as a weapon master using a non meta set up, but with the proper guild rank/ religion rank or whatever that allows me to use the meta set up if absolutely necessary. The group may be more willing to allow me to tag along with the build I find to be more fun if I was capable of swapping some augments if we run into a brick wall.

Boe

+1

@VmanGman My thoughts exactly.

McMackMuck

I hope there will be guild metrics to determine who is contributing to the team effort. There's much more to teamwork than just doing PvE or PvP content. Your guild is going to need resources. Your node is going to need experience.
If you want to know who is performing in combat then you need to determine some kind of training regime.
- If you can't arrange PvP test battles against a "friendly" guild then you don't have a serious PvP group.
- If you can't arrange PvE dungeon trials against "easy" content then you don't have a serious PvE group.
Players that just turn up and expect to do the fun bit without any preparation shouldn't be part of the equation.

I understand the desirability of DPS meters, but they are only part of the equation and if you rely on them too heavily then you miss out on the "real world" (LOL, Verra) application of team tactics.

Biccus

VmanGman wrote: »

It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

you can track your health, you can physically see the damage numbers you're doing, so why shouldn't you be allowed to track the damage you're doing? You can chose to not have a combat tracker on your screen if you only want an adventure.

I want to play a game, I want to be as good at the game as I can. A combat tracker will give a much better idea on what I'm doing well/badly at. Just have faith that the community will matter more than a groups elitism.

Hawkwood

Noaani wrote: »

HixHaxxen wrote: »

DPS meters suck. Next topic.

People that don't understand combat trackers suck - and also generally call then DPS meters.

Yeah I don't depend on them to be good. Just skillz for me. You'll get their one day too. You will feel free with no training wheels.

Noaani

VmanGman wrote: »

An instanced battle that is heavily tracked by spreadsheets and data analyzers is nothing close to what a MMORGP is supposed to be. Just think about what he/she described. It's literally a screen full of numbers and data... that's not an adventure in a fantasy world.

There are a few problems with this argument.

The first is that it is simply an argument against a quantity of data, not an argument against access to data. I doubt you would want to argue that floating combat feedback (those numbers you see on screen that tell you how much damage each hit does, and such) should be removed from the game. Since this is also simply information, your argument is that there is some arbitrary point between that and what the poster in question described that is an acceptable limit on how much data should be made available.

You are also arguing that this arbitrary line should be the same for all players.

Is the level that this poster went to above what I would do? Yes, it is. I prefer to run a combat tracker in the background so that I can analyze things at the end of the day (or the following day, usually).

Does this mean that this player shouldn't be able to do things the way they want to do them? Hell no.

The funny thing is, since Ashes will have a combat tracker, if you were absolutely adamant that players shouldn't be able to do what that poster described, the best way to make that happen is to ask Intrepid to implement a combat tracker in to the game, but make it only give feedback at the end of the encounter/event.

Strangely, this is what I have been arguing for Intrepid to add since about 2018.

IcipherV

One argument that I can see against DPS meters in AoC is that they would automate the process of figuring out someone else's build. The game has so many ways to make a "unique" build from spending skill points to level up your base skills, weapon skills, to racial, class, social organization and religious augments. Having a detailed breakdown on demand would simply give all of the information for free with no effort required.

Joomus

In my opinion the meter won't get rid of or create toxic behavior. I've seen plenty from groups that weren't using a dps tracker. You'll still have groups enter an area, start clearing mobs, and when it's taking longer than they want with a "lower skilled group" the "elite" players will just drop and leave. I can't say i completely blame them even though I've never really considered myself more than a decent player. I've been in bad groups where they've been absolutely fail and gone "linkdead" to make it stop. I've been in random groups that did well enough but not great and everyone was still fine. The DPS tracker had nothing to do with how people reacted. I generally just used mine after a zone was finished to see what new gear was proc'ing or which abilities were doing the most damage/heals. I based my own toxicity on how well the flow of the zone was... or wasn't...
As someone previously stated, even without the tracker people will find ways to judge a group. Most likely by time it's taking at the beginning.

Noaani

IcipherV wrote: »

One argument that I can see against DPS meters in AoC is that they would automate the process of figuring out someone else's build. The game has so many ways to make a "unique" build from spending skill points to level up your base skills, weapon skills, to racial, class, social organization and religious augments. Having a detailed breakdown on demand would simply give all of the information for free with no effort required.

Combat trackers dont work like that.

IcipherV

Noaani wrote: »

Combat trackers dont work like that.

what? Of course they do. Combat trackers give you a detailed breakdown of everything that happened during the fight. Number of casts, fight duration, dmg breakdown, the sequence and frequency of the skills used, mana/resources used, to allies healing you and buffing you. In WoW it even shows you players talents.

Would you care to elaborate why is it that it wouldn't work that way in AoC?

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