Shoelid wrote: » You just perfectly put into words why I've developed a dislike for combat tracking haha That pressure to do what's 5% better instead of what you think looks/feels the best absolutely sucks. And then you get some knuckleheads who get angry whenever they're grouped with somebody who wants to look cool instead of doing 5% more damage in easy PvE content. Of course, 5% can make or break some of the more difficult content, but I find that people are concerned about that 5% even when it really doesn't matter.
Vhaeyne wrote: » Noaani wrote: » It's great thinking that people will put the time in to builds - they won't, and they don't. It depends on the game. When I played GW1 back in like 2005-2006 the PvP and PvE Metas were revolving doors. The meta was just constantly changing. People would switch their builds up all day looking for an edge. Trying different skill combinations with gear sets and sub jobs. What was great was that the meta slaves were forced to change all the time or get rekt. Every time something became popular, counter building it would become popular. Depending on how in depth the build customization is. The meta could be a revolving door that is never truly solved for. Especially if they manage to pull off preventing combat logs.
Noaani wrote: » It's great thinking that people will put the time in to builds - they won't, and they don't.
Silaine wrote: » FF14 does not have damage meters and I definitely experienced much more freedom in the gameplay; not getting frustrated when I miss the timing of some ability.
Vhaeyne wrote: » There are games where you can come up with your own build and no one is going to be that upset about it. Crowfall right now has that. DDO has it. GW1 had it for sure.
Apotos wrote: » Is this what happens in high-level dungeons? I haven't noticed anything like that till now. I am on level 60 mqs. I am usually whm. On large pulls I do more damage than the dps cuz of the aoe spam but I have done those dungeons as dps and tank and the other whm that were not so active weren't kicked. In fact, nobody says anything, we just complete the dungeons a little bit slower.
Vhaeyne wrote: » A few layers of obfuscation on the client side and the only way to track DPS would be to have a program do screen capture, run image detection on the combat log window, and read it in real time. Something that is entirely possible, but not practical. Otherwise Ashes will be in the same boat as FFXIV. Where they don't want combat trackers, but it would take too much reworking to prevent combat trackers. Realistically all they have to do is make it so the combat data from the network packets is randomly different every time a client connects, and have some similar obfuscation on the clients memory. If combat trackers can't pull the data from the network traffic or the clients memory. The only thing left is to look at the screen at high speed. This could also be countered by making the combat log invisible in combat. The only thing left to look at would be damage numbers as they pop up from personal attacks, and that would only give you personal DPS. If IG really wanted no combat trackers. I think they could do it. They just have to take it seriously. but yes. let the salt flow.
Noaani wrote: » [ I am sure you are aware that each game generates it's on type of player. Players from GW back in the day had their own priorities, motives and behaviors. I dont know enough about the game to be able to say for sure what they are. DDO, however, I can speak to. In relation to other MMO's out there, DDO players are far more interested in a story than anything else. This is similar how players of LotRO are more interested in the lore in general than players from other games. Its lastly the players that care about these things going to these games, and partially the game shaping the players that are there. What neither of these games have is conflict with other players over basic resources. This one element drastically alters the game, which drastically alters how players play the game. The closest game we have had in 15+ years to Ashes is Archeage, which is why it is the only appropriate game to look towards to work out what player behavior is likely to be. We cant just assume that in a game with no resemblance at all to DDO, that players will play the game the same way DDO players play that game. We also can't go back to something like L2, because that was so long ago and players have changed since then. As to Crowfall, Archage had no meta in beta, even though everyone knew what the meta would be the moment the game went live.
Vhaeyne wrote: » Apotos wrote: » Is this what happens in high-level dungeons? I haven't noticed anything like that till now. I am on level 60 mqs. I am usually whm. On large pulls I do more damage than the dps cuz of the aoe spam but I have done those dungeons as dps and tank and the other whm that were not so active weren't kicked. In fact, nobody says anything, we just complete the dungeons a little bit slower. If someone brings up DPS outside of EX or higher they are a complete sperg. Yes, it happens in pugging. Especially near the start of a patch when people don't have gear and every bit of damage counts. You should never see anyone talking about DPS in a 24 man raid, normal mode raid, or dungeon. They are just too easy for anyone to care. The games story can be fully experienced without DPS meters. If you do go into EX or higher expect that people are using meters. The game is worth it. It is currently the number one game I recommend to people who don't care about PvP.
Vhaeyne wrote: » I have played DDO off and on since launch. I pug heavily, and have used the in game voice chat to talk to a lot of people in that game over decades now. I have met very few people in DDO who care about DDOs lore.
I still think that even with a high degree of competition in Ashes. If we don't know what customizations for sure are better due to lack of solid SIMs or DPS meters, but we are theory craft skills and other options to determine that they are within a few percentage points of overall effectiveness.
Noaani wrote: » I did specifically say DDO players were more interested in a story - it is LotRO players that are interested in lore. Stories DDO players care about are sometimes from the game, sometimes not. The thing that the population of that game has above and beyond other games though, is that in general, the players of DDO care more about storytelling.
Noaani wrote: » But that just isn't human nature. Once people get an idea in their head, they will go to extrodinary lengths to maintain that their idea is the correct idea. One need only look at flat earthers for proof of this, but you can also look back through the history of science and religion. Even when you have empirical proof of something, people are unwilling to believe it. Attempting to persuade people when you don't have that proof is near impossible.
Noaani wrote: » I've said it on these forums before, I used to run a combat tracker in Archeage. As such, I was able to see issues with some of the meta builds that others weren't able to see, and I was able to create builds to counter some of those meta builds. Rather than seeing me using an off-meta build to destroy a meta class and assuming I had found a better build, I was accused of cheating. Repeatidly. I was quite happy to link the build I was using to anyone that wanted to look at it, but people refused to even look at it because I wasn't winning because of my build, I was obviously winning because I was cheating - at least to them. People do not want the things they know to be true to end up not being true, because if one thing they know to be true isn't true, then what else that they know to be true would be next? This is why I said earlier that without a combat tracker, the only way the meta in the game will ever change is if Intrepid made drastic changes to abilities - drastic enough that players can easily see that the things they knew to be true are no longer true. Even with a combat tracker, changing the meta will take some serious time. But at least it will happen.
Vhaeyne wrote: » You are a glass half empty guy I am betting.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » DPS meters are objectively anti fun for a majority of every playerbase involved.
One of the major themes of this game is going to be player choice. That cannot coexist with DPS meters. The fact that it will enforce a meta faster by having them is just an additional incentive not to have them, but it isn't the main reason. The game is being designed in a way where DPS meters won't serve any purpose even if they did exist.
It is being confused that DPS meters are useful because other games use them. However, they are only used in those games because of the UI failures of those games. Especially WoW. WoW had a UI that hid so much key information from the player that DPS meters were used just to figure out what the hell was even happening. The animations didn't always really tell you what was happening on their own.
There are a lot of MMO's that either predated or are as old as WoW that never used DPS meters, because they are fundamentally opposed to what MMO's are for.
Needing DPS meters are a failure for the game to tell you the necessary information on it's own. Plus they are always abused to gate the community. There was never a game with DPS meters that were not used in this way. If you want a good community with this game. Then DPS meters cannot exist at the same time.
