Stormfyre wrote: » Honestly I'm excited to play an MMO that isn't going to be cluttered up with a million addons and just have everything you need built in. .
rikardp98 wrote: » So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time.
Dygz wrote: » What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat.
Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win.
Noaani wrote: » I have pulled people aside who thought they were good, shown them numbers of where they are and where I'd like them to be, and then helped them arrive at that spot
Every time I have said to people "your objective performance is not as good as I would like, here are the numbers" I have received nothing other than an acceptance and desire to do better, for the guild. Every single time, that is the outcome we have had.
If you are able to do this without a combat tracker, people are able to work out if you are good or not without one.
As such, literally all the things you dont want people doing with a combat tracker will still be done - either that or it wont be possible to work out that way to win that you talk about.
The things you dont want, which are also things that I dont want, will still be present.
This is why - as I have been telling you for years - your argument here isn't against combat trackers.
akabear wrote: » Watch that video from about 1:00 -1:02 hr mark.. pretty much sums up the current position.
Dygz wrote: » That is false. Because I don't want combat trackers and Ashes is not supporting add-ons.
Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time. Nope. Not just in PUGs. In groups, in general. Steven mentions it can be toxic for guilds I disagree that most PUGs will still be toxic even without combat trackers. That has not been my experience. I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups. I maintain that not having combat trackers will greatly reduce toxicity in groups compared to MMORPGs that support combat trackers. Here's Steven's philosophy:https://youtu.be/U8UmFQGDnI4?t=3628STEVEN:"I understand the desire to use DPS meters, however... First of all, on the add-on front, we're not allowing add-ons. On the DPS meter front, I'm opposed to DPS meters. And the reason why is this... There's two types of things that happen with DPS meters in MMOs: First, it can create a toxic dynamic between essentially excluding players from raids and/or content because "Oh, you don't live up to our DPS standard." That's the first thing. The second thing that it does is... Back in the day, when MMOs were great, you had to win your encounters through trial and error. You didn't have a DPS meter telling you, "Oh! We need to get up to 67.7% damage in order to achieve the whatever!" It wasn't some mechanical bullshit experience where you got to look at a graph or chart and say, "Oh! We need to do exactly this." Instead, you actually had to be present, you had to watch what was happening, you had to help your fellow guild members learn how to play the game and you had to excel as a group. Now, that is the type of experience we want to replicate: that everybody is in this together type of scenario where we build the teams we are friends with up and we accomplish content together. It kind of also provides this mystery effect, where you're required to actually participate and watch what's going on and not just rely on that DPS meter." Contemplating what Steven said, I realize that the main reason I have this as a core philosophy is that my younger brother has Downs Syndrome and I was the one in the family who took the time to make sure that he became as independent as possible. My parents and my older brother typically took the route of "Why are you trying to teach him that?" And my answer was, "Because you taught us to be independent and we should help him be as independent and capable as he can possibly be." We discovered about 8 years ago that he's a computer whiz. Which was not particularly surprising because I always helped him learn how to use gadgets when we were kids. If there is something he can't figure out, I don't blame him for being too handicapped to be successful, I blame myself for not being able to figure out the right way to explain things to him in a manner that he can comprehend. But, typically, we are both confident that I will eventually figure out a way to explain things to him in a way that he can subsequently succeed at a task at his own. And, he also has enough of an IT mindset that he's willing to to troubleshoot on his own. The supervisors at his group home say that when an electronic devise at the house malfunctions, they ask my brother to fix it before they call a professional. I'm not going to kick my brother from a group or an activity just because he has trouble succeeding. I'm going to find a way to help him be the best he can be despite his flaws. And I do that in all aspects of my life. When I'm taking a Salsa class, I look around to see who's insecure or struggling and I go help them succeed. Often I end up doing so silently. I just dance with them. And the response is typically, "Thank you! I learned so much dancing with you. Where do you teach?" I don't teach. I'm just dancing. The first few times I was shocked...because...again, I didn't even say anything. A few years ago, I noticed someone struggling in the back of the class and went to help her. She said, "I'm sorry. I have no peripheral vision, so it's hard for me to understand what's happening." No problem. I stood next to her and devised ways to describe what was being taught. A few months later she said to me, "Dygz! You can teach dance to the blind! I was going to quit, but you helped me learn how to dance and because of that, I was able to spend last weekend dancing Salsa with my family in Mexico!" A couple of years ago, I dropped in on a Salsa class I had stopped taking for a few months. The instructor said to the other students, "This is Dygz. Do you know Dygz?" One of the students I had been helping said, "Yeah, I know Dygz! He's the reason I know how to dance Salsa!" And I was freaking out, thinking - "Uh! You should know how to dance because of the instructor! I just helped a bit." I'm not saying that kicking is toxic because I hate getting kicked from groups or because I have a hard time finding groups - I love to solo. I find it toxic to witness other players get kicked from the groups I'm in and be helpless to prevent that because I'm not the leader. I've been playing D&D for 40 years. In D&D, the group works together with what we have, flaws as well as perks, to devise a winning strategy. A player who sucks at combat is not going to get kicked from the group. A player who dictates to other players how they must build or play their characters will get kicked from the group. Because RP trumps combat prowess in an RPG. If an RPG is designed correctly, any subclass should be to fulfill the class role for any group challenge. Any subclass of Wizard should be able to fulfill the Wizard role. Any subclass of Druid should be able to fulfill the Druid role. Nobody in the group should be demanding that a Necromancer must switch to Wild Blade because Wild Blade will cause more damage in a particular dungeon. A Necromancer choosing to remain as Necromancer for RP reasons is not being selfish. It's what is expected to happen in an RPG. And...believe it or not...MMORPGs are RPGs. Even if the group is in a dungeon that is resistant to Necromancy, the group should not be threatening the Necromancer to switch to Wild Blade, the group should be compensating while helping the Necromancer be the best Necromancer that character can be in that situation. Maybe, instead of having the Necromancer rely on Necromancer augments, we just let them rely on non-augmented Summoner abilities. Or maybe, instead of figuring out how to force the Necromancer to play better, I decide to change my personal strategies and rely more on potions or traps or bombs. What I never do is kick someone for sucking at combat. What I never do is bully someone for sucking at combat. Rather, I remain confident that -with no need to rely on combat trackers- we can allow each player to play the way they like to play and still devise some strategy that allows us to win. It may not be uber-efficient or uber-fast, but -if the RPG is well-designed, we should be able to figure out a way to overcome any challenge without trampling over the RP choices of the players. Again, I agree with Steven. I play as if we are friends who are all in this together. We can solve the mystery of how to defeat the challenge even if some members of the party horribly suck at combat. Devs should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated if the group reaches a specific DPS threshold. Devs also should not be designing dungeons, raids and bosses with the expectation that they can only be defeated with a cookie-cutter set of classes or abilities. We can figure out how to synergize the abilities and skills the player characters choose to bring to the party (even if some of those PCs suck at combat) organically, rather than mechanically. In Ashes, that is the goal. Because the current design does not include or support combat trackers - especially not DPS meters. Noanni tries to act like that hasn't been known for years already.
rikardp98 wrote: » Do you have any experience with guilds and combat trackers? Because you just said that you find toxic groups from pugs and Twitch pugs. I also just have you an example were a guild (my guild, and many other guild) uses combat trackers and are NOT toxic, meaning that the toxicity you are talking about do not come from the Combat tracker but rather toxic people.
Recluse74 wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't? Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups. It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical. if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with. Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game. mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level. I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence. AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that. I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group. I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun.. I'll say it again: I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with. There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online. Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible. Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers. So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time. How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level) It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world? And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD) The issue is not hardcore guilds in any way shape or form. People who join those guilds, as you said, know what they are getting into. So if they get booted after a raid... sure they will be pissed, and it will cause drama, but such is the nature when you live in a cutthroat society. I play a crapfest of a game called Outriders. It has a combat tracker. Combat tracker means nothing to me because I truly do not care about the game, the game is basically a time waster to me. I do not even look at it after a solo round. My friend plays as well. When we play together, I find myself looking at the tracker.. sense of pride maybe, or I just like know if I am better than he is. Problem is...I am better... way better... When I put up 100 million damage... He puts up 60 million damage. So why is it, that a casual player of a game, who does not really even like the game... still judges his friend's damage output, and usually tries to play solo, more than he does with his friend.. ANSWER: Human Nature. And that is what will happen if a combat tracker is put in AoC... even the casual players will start to distance themselves from people who do not perform to a certain level. And that will create a toxic environment even if it is a passive aggressive one.
rikardp98 wrote: » Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't? Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups. It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical. if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with. Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game. mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level. I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence. AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that. I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group. I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun.. I'll say it again: I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with. There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online. Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible. Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers. So the toxicity you have encountered is toxic pugs, not toxic "combat tracking person". Most pugs will still be toxic even though dps meters or combat trackers do not exist. Why is that? Well that's is the nature of most pugs, random people that don't know each other, people that don't really care = toxic environment. If a person randomly dies very boss then the pug will probably kick you (this will probably not happen that often since ashes won't have group finder) or hate on you for dieing all the time. How is combat trackers toxic for the general mmorpg community when it will only affect people when they join a toxic group? (Here I do not count the top end raiders since you join knowing that you need to preform on a top end level) It's not like dps meters will matter in most pvp encounters or the open world? And what I meant by that very weird sentence of mine is, you need to find where you fint in, are you a hardcore player that optimize everything or are you more of an casual player. (Sorry for the confusion xD)
Dygz wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't? Sometimes pugs. Sometimes twitch groups. It's not hard to find. It's fairly typical. if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with. Yep. And that should be even easier in Ashes since a combat tracker is not planned for this game. mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level. I think I agree with the first half of that sentence and then I have no clue what you were trying to convey in the second half of the sentence. AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that. I disagree. By inherently toxic, I mean for the overall community of any MMORPG; not inherently toxic for every group. I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun.. I'll say it again: I will find people I enjoy playing with. And it's likely I will find people I enjoy grouping with. There will also be PUGs during moments when those people I normally play with are not online. Pretty much the only times PUGs are not fun is when people rely on combat trackers and when the leader just wants to clear everything as uber-efficiently as possible. Thankfully, the Ashes devs won't be (actively) supporting combat trackers, according to the current game design, so, Ashes PUGs should be even more fun than MMORPGs that implement combat trackers.
rikardp98 wrote: » then my question to you is, how did you find this group and group leader that cares about the dps meters while you don't?
if you do not care about it you can always find like minded people to play with.
mmorpg are for all people and people will play a mmorpg on different levels, you need to choose are you want to exist and play with people on the same level.
AND, combat trackers are not inherently toxic. In my current guild on wow classic we track every raid every week. However, we just look over it for fun and see what the general party can do better, we never look at peoples dps and how they preform because we are a casual guild that play for fun, meaning that we have no requirements on high dps parses or something like that.
I will say it again, FIND PEOPLE YOU ENJOY PLAYING WITH. Join a guild, talk to people, add people you like, ignore people you don't. PUG's (pick up groups) are very very rarely fun..
90Bubbel wrote: » I have some issues with damage trackers/meters, (note im not a big mmo player, hoping this will be the one for me) but this reminds me of the discussion between asmongold and mconnel recently, the issue is a a domino effect. Someone does not do enough damage -people wont give them a chance to join raids-they are unable to get better gear-unable to do enough dmg-people wont give them a chance to join raids. and so on, it just goes in a circle
Dygz wrote: » I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » Dygz wrote: » I agree that the non-existence of combat trackers won't completely eradicate toxicity in groups. One thing I'd like to point out about this though is that they will be accountable for their toxicity in those cases. Where with the combat trackers the people who are not topping them are accountable for the toxicity against them. This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though. Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing. That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
Yuyukoyay wrote: » This game is kinda being designed for them to be kinda useless anyway. DPS meters will be useless because most of the classes will have some form of versatility applied to them. So it will be very common for classes to do lower damage in return for other forms of support, healing, or abilities similar to that. Like there might be a class that does the most DPS in the game and how he does it is by giving everyone in an entire raid a 10% dps buff. The DPS meters will see him as doing absolutely nothing though.
Also just flat out doesn't keep track of healing or support which I said above, but that's very important for a game designed in the older MMO style. Classes in Everquest aren't actual classes like they are in other MMO's. You pick them similar to how ashes is going to, but a lot of the combinations have the ability to add a lot of ridiculous utility to your party. So when you spec into damage in everquest you are often doing 2 classes worth of direct damage. If you spec into 2 healing classes you will be doing 2 classes worth of healing. That kind of distinction does not exist for DPS meters. So they won't be possible to use effectively in a game like this.
