Items should not have level restrictions

I feel it's not immersive that I can't wear a helmet because my level isn't high enough. It makes no sense, same with armor. It goes to the body, what else do you need to know?

That being said, I agree some restrictions could be taken place. Instead of basing the restrictions toward levels, it should be based in some skills. Maybe a helmet is too heavy, same with armor. Think of it as D&D/Pathfinder where you need a minimum in Strength to wear some armor.

It'd make more sense to have items are locked behind stats than in levels, and the minimum at certain levels so it doesn't lock players out from using them any equipment, weapons, etc. It'd be more immersive and it'd make more sense that you can't use this sword because your strength isn't enough, you can't truly use a rapier because you lack the agility. And instead of just unable to equip them, they just don't benefit you, they either do less damage or you move very slow.

EDIT: Like what is a level? It doesn't make sense. So having a better lore friendly why we can't make use of weapons and gear. It would make more sense to have something like tuning to essence within armor and weapons. Like what we can tolerate or not, it means we can't wear them as it could damage us or we can't just make the most out of it.

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McShave

I like the idea, but since you don't want knew players with the best gear killing players that have played for months, you could reduce the effectiveness of the better gear behind some sort of combat efficiency. This really doesn't change anything from the current system. Using the higher-end gear would be just as useless as not being high enough level to use it, but I guess you can put the gear on and look cool? This topic also goes with my idea of having combat levels separate from character levels, although I expect I would have to make my own game for my idea to be realized (or play OSRS lol).

ViBunja

McShave wrote: »

I like the idea, but since you don't want knew players with the best gear killing players that have played for months, you could reduce the effectiveness of the better gear behind some sort of combat efficiency. This really doesn't change anything from the current system. Using the higher-end gear would be just as useless as not being high enough level to use it, but I guess you can put the gear on and look cool? This topic also goes with my idea of having combat levels separate from character levels, although I expect I would have to make my own game for my idea to be realized (or play OSRS lol).

Yeh, this is exactly what I meant. They can wear it, but can't make use of it fully so it doesn't give them an advantage.

Nagash

Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

McShave

Nagash wrote: »

Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.

Nagash

McShave wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.

so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.

McShave

Nagash wrote: »

so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.

haha, ya. Leveling up is the most important part of an rpg system, it's just how you level up and in what ways leveling up increases character power.

Taleof2Cities

Nagash wrote: »

McShave wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Say a mage wants to wear heavy armour because it's the new meta but lacks the stats. how would he be able to get the stats to wear that armour without a debuff? If you say they cant then that's goes against the "anyone can use anything" idea of ashes

I would expect that classes will still have the gear affinity, just like ashes is planning. But if a mage wanted to get better at the heavy armor, then they would put it on and then get wacked by mobs for a couple hours. A higher mob level will give more proficiency with the armor you are wearing. Similar to classic wow's weapon and armor skill.

so you would have another levelling up system for gear that increases as you use it. See I can get behind that but it's still leveling up.

You're making some good points in my opinion, @Nagash ... which the OP doesn't seem very interested in regardless of Steven's quote that the leveling system be "traditional".

Not sure how much of the leveling system players will be able to test in the June Alpha-1 segment. Maybe we'll get a better idea then if the OP's idea would fit or juxtapose with what's already in the game.

tautau

I wonder if this imperfect analogy might be useful. 'Tanking' requires armor. Being a good Rogue requires stealth. What if the analogy was driving? A lvl 1 can drive a bike. A lvl 5 can drive a scooter, lvl 15 a motorcycle, lvl 20 a car, lvl 40 a bus or truck, lvl 60 a tractor-trailer combo. Each new vehicle requires more abilities to control and use.

Perhaps we are seeing 'armor' as too generic a term. More complex and advanced armor requires more abilities and more strength to use. Driving a bike doesn't mean you can drive a semi, right?

So I am favor of requiring levels of experience in order to use more advanced equipment. I agree this isn't a perfect comparison, btw.

PS Notice I used a tractor-trailer combo as the most complicated to drive. I almost used driving a tank, but then I was afraid of twisting that other thread into this one as well.

AntVictus

No. This whole pov wasn't even thought out, and it's very obvious this was done by a knee jerk "I don't like leveling" discussion that you had with friends or something. So again, no.

George_Black

Items should not have lv restrictions in single player rpgs.

Dygz

What's the point of levels if there are no level restrictions?

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

What's the point of levels if there are no level restrictions?

A steady and easier to balance progression path for the devs. (not just items, but skills/talents)
A way for players to gauge relative power at a glance.

As someone who prefers classless/leveless systems I do see the benefits and appeal of using levels in a RPG system.

Dygz

A progression of what?

I think the OP is wanting to have something that is closer to a historical sim, rather than a high fantasy RPG?
Fantasy RPGs are designed to follow the hero's journey...where you begin as some lowly peon and, through experience(s), not only learn more skills and abilities, but also gain access to better weapons and gear.
A person with low strength is not going to be able to properly wield a heavy crossbow or a heavy mace. Nor can just anyone fight proficiently while wearing chainmail or plate. That takes practice and experience.
And, in a high fantasy settings, gear is likely to have enchantments - which can actually come with restrictions based on experience. In MMORPGs experience is measured by levels.
A first level peon being able to immediately pull the sword out of the stone and proficiently wield Excalibur doesn't fit with great storytelling - especially not great high fantasy storytelling.
Ashes isn't intended to be as mundane as the real world.
So, yeah, gear is going to have progression.

Gear without progression, where anyone can used any gear they find is a great FPS...maybe.
That doesn't make for a very good high fantasy RPG.

Vhaeyne

@Dygz I must have misread your post earlier.

I read "What's the point of levels if there are no item restrictions?".

That is my bad mate. I think we clearly agree based on your last response.

OP clearly wants a historical sim. In which case I would say I have had a lot of fun in life is feudal:your own, and mortal online 2 for that play style.

The harsh reality of multiplayer historical sim might be too much for someone who prioritizes immersion. A world where laws are not hard coded into existence, but instead only exist as abstract agreements between cooperating parties. Which is what happens if you go full immersion. You get a full loot world that is covered in bandits. Honest people clinging together to defend what little they have. The only way to truly succeed is to have a larger and more coordinated army... Like all of human history.

Dygz

Yeah... I mean,
MMORPGs draw a wide variety of fandom - not just players interested in playing an RPG in a high fantasy setting.
Some players, like Simurgh, prefer a low fantasy aesthetic. My co-host, Fantmx, prefers a low fantasy sim over a high fantasy RPG.
Ashes is probably at least a 9 out of 10 on the fantasy scale. It's rooted in Pathfinder rather than Conan, the Barbarian or even LOTR.

Ramirez

This would be possible if was a game like mortal or albion online , but in this case you have lvling

maouw

Not to ruffle any feathers, I do like the idea of items having skill requirements instead of strictly level requirements - it's essentially a soft level requirement but more flexible.
Puts focus on your build, not just your level.

not a massive issue though, to me.

bloodprophet

Recent dev discussion about this

https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/comment/262284#Comment_262284

Karthos

I mean, if your biggest issue is that level restrictions fuck with your RP, maybe you just aren't imaginative enough at RP?

Can't wear a helmet? RP reasons why you can't. Paladin needs to earn it first, Warrior broke it and it's being repaired, your elf ears bother you in a helmet so you sent off your mage hood for alterations, ect.

I find the problem solving method of "I don't like this, lets get rid of it" to be the result of a lazy mind, when sometimes, it's actually less work overall to just find a way to go around it.

Why dig a boulder out of the ground because it's in your way, when you can just walk to the side and around it?

Cypher

Big fat disagree. I want level restrictions on gear. And hopefully the leveling process will actually be lengthy like Steven has said, so we spend a decent amount of time in each set, and trying to get rare materials for the next set.

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