maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Noaani

Specfreq wrote: »

I think the Pros and Cons for having a meter and not having a meter are actually different.

For example:

Meter Pros:
* See who is under performing
* Easier to play optimally

Meter Cons:
* More toxicity
* More gate keeping
* Forced to play a subclass you didn't want to by a group

Does not equal:

No Meter Cons:
* Cannot see who is under performing
* Harder to play optimally

No meter Pros:
* Less toxicity
* Less gate keeping
* Play your preferred subclass

Seeing who is under performing can be a Pro or can be a Con. But the consequences for either system are not actually equal because it is really a perspective problem.

If there is a perspective problem on a binary system then I agree with the OP with having a 3rd option. Even if may be incorrect data from a training dummy, compromise should be the best way to go.

You are missing a few points here.

Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.

This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.

Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?

With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.

Specfreq

Noaani wrote: »

You are missing a few points here.

Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.

This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.

Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?

With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.

So assess it from the training dummy, I already agreed that there should be a meter.

Noaani

Specfreq wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

You are missing a few points here.

Ashes will have a meta, regardless of.combat trackers. If you are joining a group or a raid, you will be expected to conform to that meta.

This means gatekeeping will be the same regardless of the presence or absence of a meter, and it means you will have a list of specific builds you will be expected to play.

Without a meter, if someone comes along with a build I have not seen, I am unlikely to take them if the content poses a challenge. Why would I risk the success of my group or raid on that?

With a meter, I can take them and assess the build, and decide if that build would hold us back or not.

So assess it from the training dummy, I already agreed that there should be a meter.

I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.

Specfreq

Noaani wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.

You're absolutely right about that, I shouldn't have added it to my example list. The real takeaway should be that there are actually 2 separate Pros and Cons lists that do not mirror each other.

What do you think about OP's compromise?

Saedu

Specfreq wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm just pointing out that any list of pros and cons for a combat tracker cant include any notion of being able to play the class you want to play, as players will always demand conforming to the games meta.

You're absolutely right about that, I shouldn't have added it to my example list. The real takeaway should be that there are actually 2 separate Pros and Cons lists that do not mirror each other.

What do you think about OP's compromise?

Training dummy dps is not sufficient as it does not factor in the variables of the actual encounter. I think personal or guild only combat trackers could be a viable compromise.

akabear

Recluse74 wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

MMO is supposed to entertain a spectrum of players, I know that games with meters tend to punish players that do not like meters in any way - that is understandable. The best way for both type of players is to find an ingame control solution about tracking useful information.

The fact is that current approach to "no meter ever" is handicapping itself when the game actually shows you damage numbers.

Also I totally disagree with the opinion that showing information is causing toxicity. Information is power and it is on each player if they want to be toxic with the acquired information. What I am more afraid of is how easy it is going to be to replace people. When you can get a replacement in a few minutes then there will be gatekeeping even without meters

I think the entire argument between DPS/Non DPS meters, is old school vs new school MMO players. Neither are wrong. It is just a different way of playing. With Old School.. failure is expected along the journey while New school, failure is expected, just don't let it happen again lol. Not to that extreme all of the time.. but some of the time.

Replacing... sucks to me. But I completely understand it. Some people just choose classes they either were not meant to play or do not understand the mechanics and timing of, and sometimes they are just not coordinated enough to play the class.

Pretty close to same thinking here. I`m old school train of thought.

Learn to play the game first, not some tracker that takes away need for experience, lessons learned, intuition and the community working together to workout what works for their group in isloation.

To me a trackers deplete and devalue accomplishments and end up a catapulting players to end game at the forfeit of the journey.

Ranking and ability not earned, just blueprinted and with an accelerated position at end game, a faster dead game as objectives too easily overcome and an ordinary game.

Noaani

Specfreq wrote: »

What do you think about OP's compromise?

While I am not against the idea of training dummy's (I did suggest them a few years back), they aren't going to stop guilds from running combat trackers.

Since they wont stop the development or use of trackers, I dont see them as any kind of a compromise, but rather as an added feature that some people will make use of.

Recluse74

Wrong thread

Tragnar

The oldschool vs new mmo style of play is the "crux" of the dps meter topic and today are totally different circumstances.

"Back then" you maybe just had dmg value ingame and no meters etc. Some people were smart enough to find the easiest way of doing the most damage with their builds. That is good and all, but the same isnt possible today if you allow showing damage numbers. Theorycrafting today is in different universe than what it was "back in the old school mmo".

If damage numbers stay in the game then theorycrafters will have all they need to create near perfect sims for assessing player builds that will eventually make into the meta. I know what I am talking about, because I've created several "partial" sims that were about finding out breakpoints for certain buff/debuff procs in a raid environment and thus giving an exact value to otherwise unquantifiable variables.

However you can stay hopefull, if only a few thousand players play this game then it is very likely that there won't be a lot of theorycrafters to do that, but if the game is succesful then inevitably the amount of theorycrafters will be quite big

ViBunja

What if we do it old school, like IRL? And get people to fight the same monster to see where their skill lies? The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game. So you wanna hire new members? Take them to a field and fight monsters, talk and discuss strategies and see if they can improve after giving advice, since this will also tells you if they can follow instructions.

Noaani

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

ViBunja

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

Nagash

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

Thats not how DPS meters work

Noaani

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

I can make stories up too, but it is just a waste of time.

ViBunja

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

I can make stories up too, but it is just a waste of time.

It's not a story, it's something that actually happened.

Nagash

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

I can make stories up too, but it is just a waste of time.

It's not a story, it's something that actually happened.

Then that group leader was bad at their job and should never be in charge of a raid again

Noaani

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

I can make stories up too, but it is just a waste of time.

It's not a story, it's something that actually happened.

Sure it is, bud.

Lets analyze your story.

First of all, you are talking about a pickup raid. Guild raids (which make up 90% of raids) don't just boot players for one off bad performance.

So, pick up raid it is. Already we are in a minority.

Now, with this pick up raid, you have a leader using a combat tracker. There was a wipe - for unspecified reasons. If low DPS was the reason for the wipe, booting a player is almost never the answer. The answer is increasing the uptime of your DPS characters - the time they have to be able to DPS.

Now, some people that run pick up raids boot people because it makes them feel good. They think they are in charge, so they can do what they want. Would such a player have booted someone for low DPS, without paying attention to what was actually happening? Maybe, but that player was going to boot someone anyway.

So, we now have a pick up raid being lead by someone that should not be leading pick up raids. All that player booting the lowest DPS means to the rest of the raid is that the raid leader is someone that shouldn't be leading a raid. This is doing all other people present a favor, as a raid isn't going to be successful with that leader. Him booting that player (regardless of a combat tracker) is just telling the rest of you to leave and not waste your time.

And the last point is you said the player kicked was "the healer", which means this raid leader was running a raid with a single healer. This is the part that makes this story an obvious piece of fiction.

So, you have a story that was clearly made up, but if true is simply pointing out a bad raid leader for all present to avoid in the future, and the use of a combat tracker in said story was negligible. The story would have played out the same with or without a combat tracker.

Tragnar

ViBunja wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

ViBunja wrote: »

The whole idea of not adding DPS meters is to get people to talk and interact with them, it's meant to be a very social game.

Combat trackers do not detract from the social aspects of an MMORPG.

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

To think that this scenario is possible to happen at least in 51% of raids is totally detached from reality,

The only realistic way for this to occur is in a pug raid where the leader does this only if he has another person ready to fill in.

Something similar can happen in overpopulated guilds where there is a big competition for raid spots and the leaders usually tend to bench players that are not performing as well as others - but even then it is almost 99% of the time just a bench and not a guild kick

Edit:
And to think that he would kick a healer is just totally not possible, because a pug is formed if you already know of an available tank or there is not a tank drout and since you usually need more healers than just 1 then it just means that the last spot being filled is 90% of the time a healer

Vhaeyne

ViBunja wrote: »

Raid Leader Looks at DPS Meter after wipe.
Looks at the lowest DPS from a player.
Kicks player.
Player they kicked out was the healer.

Genius.

If I seen your DPS was low for a healer I would kick you after 2-3 pulls depending on how quickly I think I could replace you. Key words "low for a healer", if all of my other healers are preforming well and you are not, that shows me that you are not ready to learn the raid because you are still learning your job. You can call that being toxic, but I call it not wasting 7-39(depending on the game) other peoples time.

To me it would be irresponsible not to do that.

Tragnar

Many people here seem to look for a validation to waste other raiders time for their role-play reasons

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