Feels bad missing out on Titanbark... Will packages be available again in some form?

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I could be wrong but I thought they mentioned that all of the various purchased packages would be available in game in some form when the game releases? Whether it will be through the cosmetic store, or achievable in game through some various means is unknown at this time.

Vhaeyne

Pcav wrote: »

Titel.

No, never.

The short explanation is that it has been policy from the start. They do not plan to change this.

Talents

Once cosmetic packs are gone, they're gone forever.

Saedu

dewan58 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I thought they mentioned that all of the various purchased packages would be available in game in some form when the game releases? Whether it will be through the cosmetic store, or achievable in game through some various means is unknown at this time.

They said in the stream today there may be similar variations in game, etc, but not the exact same skin.

Personally I don't like this whole "get it now or it's forever gone" sales tactic. It's done to create a sense of urgency so people spend their money right now. It feels manipulative. I tend to buy less in games that use this tactic vs games that have them always available.

A much better option is to always have everything up as they build the content... but then have select items on sale at different times. This gives the player choice if they missed out on something they really want while also creating some of that urgency they try to do with the sales tactic. These cosmetic items in game are so insanely marked up they could afford to do sales and would actually make way more doing it this way than limiting the inventory.

Asgerr

Saedu wrote: »

dewan58 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I thought they mentioned that all of the various purchased packages would be available in game in some form when the game releases? Whether it will be through the cosmetic store, or achievable in game through some various means is unknown at this time.

They said in the stream today there may be similar variations in game, etc, but not the exact same skin.

Personally I don't like this whole "get it now or it's forever gone" sales tactic. It's done to create a sense of urgency so people spend their money right now. It feels manipulative. I tend to buy less in games that use this tactic vs games that have them always available.

The thing is, you're not really buying the cosmetics right now. The cosmetics are a bonus for the purchase of the alpha and beta keys.

They aren't a manipulation to force you to buy the skins, rather an extra incentive to buy the alpha and beta access - which presents different issues depending on your stance, but ultimately the cosmetics here are not used for manipulation, no one is forcing you to buy them.

Saedu

Asgerr wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

dewan58 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I thought they mentioned that all of the various purchased packages would be available in game in some form when the game releases? Whether it will be through the cosmetic store, or achievable in game through some various means is unknown at this time.

They said in the stream today there may be similar variations in game, etc, but not the exact same skin.

Personally I don't like this whole "get it now or it's forever gone" sales tactic. It's done to create a sense of urgency so people spend their money right now. It feels manipulative. I tend to buy less in games that use this tactic vs games that have them always available.

The thing is, you're not really buying the cosmetics right now. The cosmetics are a bonus for the purchase of the alpha and beta keys.

They aren't a manipulation to force you to buy the skins, rather an extra incentive to buy the alpha and beta access - which presents different issues depending on your stance, but ultimately the cosmetics here are not used for manipulation, no one is forcing you to buy them.

It's a sales tactic to create a sense of urgency. Otherwise, why not have all the cosmetics created so far so anyone coming in could buy the key package they want? It isn't like real physical products where there is limited supply and ongoing production costs. They choose to make the supply artificially limited to create urgency. It's a gimmick to drive more sales, no reason to deny that and say it's anything else.

The problem with this approach is that over time it can irritate your playerbase, especially those that come in new and never got the chance at the prior loot because they didn't even know about the game.

Course some people feel "special" because they got that skin and nobody else can get it now.... guess what, that might mean something for actual end-game achievements, but it doesn't mean jack for something you paid to get...

Saedu

And manipulation does not equal forcing someone to do something. It's persuading someone to do something that might not be in their best interest (i.e. "better get it now or you never can get it." feels pretty crummy).

Asgerr

Saedu wrote: »

Asgerr wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

dewan58 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I thought they mentioned that all of the various purchased packages would be available in game in some form when the game releases? Whether it will be through the cosmetic store, or achievable in game through some various means is unknown at this time.

They said in the stream today there may be similar variations in game, etc, but not the exact same skin.

Personally I don't like this whole "get it now or it's forever gone" sales tactic. It's done to create a sense of urgency so people spend their money right now. It feels manipulative. I tend to buy less in games that use this tactic vs games that have them always available.

The thing is, you're not really buying the cosmetics right now. The cosmetics are a bonus for the purchase of the alpha and beta keys.

They aren't a manipulation to force you to buy the skins, rather an extra incentive to buy the alpha and beta access - which presents different issues depending on your stance, but ultimately the cosmetics here are not used for manipulation, no one is forcing you to buy them.

It's a sales tactic to create a sense of urgency. Otherwise, why not have all the cosmetics created so far so anyone coming in could buy the key package they want? It isn't like real physical products where there is limited supply and ongoing production costs. They choose to make the supply artificially limited to create urgency. It's a gimmick to drive more sales, no reason to deny that and say it's anything else.

The problem with this approach is that over time it can irritate your playerbase, especially those that come in new and never got the chance at the prior loot because they didn't even know about the game.

Course some people feel "special" because they got that skin and nobody else can get it now.... guess what, that might mean something for actual end-game achievements, but it doesn't mean jack for something you paid to get...

I would say the reason why you don't allow these pre-launch cosmetics to be always available is to reward people who have been active in their following of the game for years.

And even then you aren't forced to buy them

Saedu wrote: »

And manipulation does not equal forcing someone to do something. It's persuading someone to do something that might not be in their best interest (i.e. "better get it now or you never can get it." feels pretty crummy).

Only if you are weak of will, to be honest. It's no jedi mind trick

Noaani

Saedu wrote: »

And manipulation does not equal forcing someone to do something. It's persuading someone to do something that might not be in their best interest (i.e. "better get it now or you never can get it." feels pretty crummy).

Honestly, I've never bought or not bought something because it was a limited offer.

If I see something that I want, I get it. If I see something and do not want it, I do not get it. The notion of "if I dont get it now, I never will" doesn't come in to it, because I either want it and get it, or dont want it and dont get it.

grisu

To some posters above,
That's great for you and we can assume now you are not a gambling addict or impulsive buyer or prone to buy more than you intended too by grabbing something little extra at the cash register. We can now assume you have not been down on your luck so badly that you tried to regain control by buying things that you think will make you happy, just to prove to yourself it's all ok.
All that means tho, is that you personally are not the targeted audience for such strategies.

I will preface this that it's entirely possible it's my own fault and I just misunderstood them, several times, in the earlier stages (as in pre/ during kickstarter), it is possible I just didn't pay close enough attention and I'm not gonna dig out years old footage of the exact moments they said it. I'm not going to argue this validity and will use it as a PERSONAL EXPERIENCE having followed this project since shortly after the discord server has gone life.

Now to the actual topic / rant.

IS always had a problem with communicating important things. OG's will know the months of silence we got right after being told we get bi weekly updates, that turned into monthly updates, that turned into extended silence. IS failed in several departments <<clearly>> laying out the terms of several things, like "what do you buy when you get a kickstarter pack". They threaded the line of "never ever again" to "well it's different isn't it?"

I AM NOT saying it's malicious intend. I am simply saying they failed at it.

I, PERSONALLY, was under the impression that all cosmetics will land in the game for everyone to grab one way or another, not the exact one, not the fancy one that you buy, but a tuned down version.
A specific example that was give by IS themselves, was the Moonstrider. In the Kickstarter campaign we were told he will have all sorts of fancy animations and bag movements and maybe even show what you carry. That's what you buy backing this early. You can still get a Moonstrider in the game, in different colours, but never with those animations, extra fluff, offered in the Kickstarter.
Also, we got the Sunstrider in the summer Kickstarter, that is quite honestly just a reskin right? It's not quite the same, but it's for all intents and purposes the same. Never ever again....right?

This led me to believe that all the monthly cosmetics will re-emerge in the game to grab, be it in the paid shop, or in-game. Not the exact ones that were in those packs, but again, reskins colour off shots, stripped of the prestige animations or some extra fluff to distinguish yourself as an early backer, but nonetheless, as shown before with the summer kickstarter and what they said before, they will not be just a selected few early birds, kind of thing.
Those are just Intrepids own offered monthly packs. Unlike the kickstarter that very clearly says you can't offer these incentives ever again, they have absolutely no obligation to not offer them again.

Now hearing clearly that their stance has changed to never ever 2.0 with the latest livestream, makes me sad, because it truly is a shift from, optional early support of a company you want to see succeed, to a very clear case of FOMO induced buyer manipulation. Even if it's not a clear "get this now or you will have to watch others to have what you never can" even if it's just a nudge of "This looks sweet, I kinda want it but is it THAT sweet? Oh shit only 4 days left to decide, whatever I just got my paycheck I'll indulge myself a bit"

It is a marketing strategy and one I detest to the bottom of my soulless living carcass.

You can dress it up all you want with "rewarding people" and "attaching prestige" to it all you want, at it's core, it's a detesteful marketing strategy.
It's the same reason with buying into alpha, attaching a price tag to it to only have people interested in it that are seriously wanting to test the game? There are more than enough people that would do it simply because they want to see the game succeed. Since they "expect people to provide feedback and yadayadayada" all they have to do is sort the people out that don't and offer more alpha places.
Paid alpha, not a game(obviously, it's what alphas are here for), expect you to test for us....?! Excuse me?
I pay you to get early access to a product I am passionate about and just want to peek in how it goes and see it grows, but now I'm...expected?! to work on it?
If you want to cut costs on testers, fine, you can do whatever the hell you want, you have enough volunteers, so many that are even willing to PAY YOU to be a tester to fill out your slots, but having the galls to say you expect alpha holders to test and give serious feedback?

This together with all the above and more paint a very different picture for me on how I look at IS as a company.

R.I.P. Moonstrider, you derpy, long-legged, weird ball of cuteness. I set my goal on getting you in-game. It wasn't meant to be.

BobzUrUncle

It is too bad that your personal opinion of Intrepid is not good. This may not be the game for you then as you will always feel that sense of disappointment.

For those of us that still believe in them, we will be happy with this great game.

Asgerr

grisu wrote: »

To some posters above,
That's great for you and we can assume now you are not a gambling addict or impulsive buyer or prone to buy more than you intended too by grabbing something little extra at the cash register. We can now assume you have not been down on your luck so badly that you tried to regain control by buying things that you think will make you happy, just to prove to yourself it's all ok.
All that means tho, is that you personally are not the targeted audience for such strategies.

The flaw in your argument, is that you cannot build something that is inclusive or protecting of every minority that might play your game.

If you do so, you'll just eventually be harming the majority, who don't have those specific issues.

By your same stance, clothing stores should not have summer/spring/fall/winter clothing lines because it forces people to desire to purchase said clothes during that specific season, or risk never getting that item again. And you'd call that predatory or manipulative.

This is pretty much the same situation.

While it is undeniable that people suffer from these mental afflictions, and it can be vastly detrimental to their wellbeing and livelihood, it is not Intrepid's responsibility to take care of them.

Now, if we were faced with a situation where Intrepid implemented Loot Boxes, then I would 100% agree. Because in that situation, you pay for randomness, and that is the essence of gambling.
But if you pay to get something that is exactly as advertised, and there is no element of randomness to the purchase, then it's just a purchase.

You can't force anyone selling things not to, because someone may be a compulsive buyer. Just ask my sister. She went through a gruesome traumatic event that caused her to lose the REM phase of sleep. Her brain never rested fully for years on end. This led to a depression, which she coped with buy buying compulsively. If you ask her, she's never blamed the stores, games etc for having things on sale.

People in those situations don't need Intrepid to stop doing limited time cosmetic sales, they need help and to be monitored to avoid situation where they put themselves in harm's way.

Saedu

BobzUrUncle wrote: »

It is too bad that your personal opinion of Intrepid is not good. This may not be the game for you then as you will always feel that sense of disappointment.

For those of us that still believe in them, we will be happy with this great game.

This in not the place for the BS "this is not the game for you" cop out answer. @grisu has done a excellent job articulating the emotions and thoughts of someone who goes down this path. It's manipulative marketing tactics that are NOT customer centric. It doesn't matter if you as a single person is not affected by them (hey guess what, I'm not either.) This isn't about you or me, it's about the other people who fall into this trap and feel these emotions.

I hope IS reads carefully what @grisu has mentioned here and reconsider their tactics. It's very interesting to see the psychology involved and the cost to reputation that this type of marketing has on people (especially younger/less mature people, people who might have addictions, or other various mental illnesses that could make them more susceptible to these tactics). At least IS isn't doing the detestable loot box tactic! But they can do better here. No need for the FOMO tactic to try to drive up sales at the cost of thier reputation.

I don't agree with everything @grisu said, but I do see how one experience has lead to another and why he feels the way he does. I think it makes sense for IS to charge to get into Alpha due to the supply vs demand. I think the expectations @Steven Sharif set are good expectations as we need active/dedicated testers and it's going to be very buggy. People who just want to see the game and not actually test should not buy the alpha keys. They should watch the streamers.

I'm pro cash shop for cosmetic items only. I probably won't buy much from it myself, but I do see it as a better revenue stream than many other options which just means more content for the rest of us.

I do intend to get a Alpha key when they go on sale next week, but I build software product by trade and I want to help with the development of this game as a hobby.

I think the way WoW does the cash shop for cosmetics is right in many ways (non-cosmetic stuff is debatable so I'm not talking about that part here). It's there for who wants the stuff, but not in your face/disruptive in game. It's cool stuff, but not overkill/too much. Items don't go away, but there are sales from time to time. And the best part... I love that they occasionally create/sell items where 100% of the proceeds go to charity. I wish they actually did more charity sales, even if it was only 50%-75% of the proceeds. Games are uniquely positioned to drive good in the world through this tactic and doing it drives positive psychological effects in the consumers mind relative to the brand.

It's too late to change commitments made in the past (unless refunds were offered). Thats okay, mistakes happen and as people we are meant to learn from them. However that's no excuse to not change going forward.

Having all items going forward always available, but only a smaller selection as "on sale" is the way to improve their reputation in this area. It could mean slightly less revenue right away, but in the long term being customer centric like this tends to win out and result in overall more revenue. Steven shows exceptional customer centricity in most of what he says/does, but this is a case the company's behavior is inconsistent with his style and it's an opportunity to improve.

grisu

I can somewhat see where the link is that you made, but I didn't say they should protect anyone, I said I find these marketing tactics detestful. Those are two very distinct statements as are the paragraphs talking about two different things.

Your argument is basically "others do bad things, so if these here do bad things now it's okay cause others do it too"
I am not her to argue morals of the worlds and businesses, I'm not opening that can of worms. Cloth stores are a bag of it's own shit garbage inflating prices and making millions off of the back of nothing.
(seasonal clothes do come back btw I dunno how you can compare that, also and im already going on a way to big tangent, seasonal clothes usually are made in a quantity that somewhere fits a projected demand and also can be handed away 2nd hand, they are alot more available as you make them out to be and while we are at it if you don't see the irony of comparing an actual real world need, as in seasonal adecvate clothing, then I don't know what's up with you. Imagine having to run around in a winter cloak while it's the hight of summer lol or demanding cloth stores offer them all year round).
Wanna talk about Nestle? Snowden? Major gaming companies? Or the million things wrong in this world?

I don't, it's not my intent here. If you are fine with such things, good on you. Pre-order away. I just put down a note that I personally am disappointed. End of story.

Saedu

grisu wrote: »

I can somewhat see where the link is that you made, but I didn't say they should protect anyone, I said I find these marketing tactics detestful. Those are two very distinct statements as are the paragraphs talking about two different things.

Your argument is basically "others do bad things, so if these here do bad things now it's okay cause others do it too"
I am not her to argue morals of the worlds and businesses, I'm not opening that can of worms. Cloth stores are a bag of it's own shit garbage inflating prices and making millions off of the back of nothing(seasonal clothes do come back btw I dunno how you can compare that, also and im already going on a way to big tangent, seasonal clothes usually are made in a quantity that somewhere fits a projected demand and also can be handed away 2nd hand, they are alot more available as you make them out to be). Wanna talk about Nestle? Snowden? Major gaming companies? Or the million things wrong in this world?

I don't, it's not my intent here. If you are fine with such things, good on you. Pre-order away. I just put down a note that I personally am disappointed. End of story.

IS doesn't have a obligation to protect people. This is more about the consumer centric mindset when developing product and understanding the psychological impact your decisions as a developer make.

I can tell you that as someone who makes software, what you shared in the prior post is pure gold for the product team to better understand the impact of their decisions.

It is very easy to fall into traps of what you personally think is right must also be right for most of your playerbase. Steve knows this and it's why he asks for feedback in EVERY stream and why he listens to us. A good product manager goes out of their way to deeply understand their customers. I doubt IS had any intentions to drive the negative feelings when they created the current model, but they can learn a lot from your feedback and adapt some changes.

Asgerr

grisu wrote: »

I don't, it's not my intent here. If you are fine with such things, good on you. Pre-order away. I just put down a note that I personally am disappointed. End of story.

Oh I'm not pre-ordering anything. I am a believer of not buying anything until perhaps the Beta at the earliest.

But my issue with it isn't the limited time cosmetics. It's that I don't see a point in paying upwards of 300€/$ to test a game for a company. They'd be better off with actual QA testers for a number of reasons.

But my not wanting to buy the cosmetics/keys to alpha & beta, doesn't mean I want no one else to do so.

I also fail to see why not having all of the skins (past, present and future) available at the same wouldn't be even more detrimental for someone suffering from the mental illnesses and issues you described? If anything it just grants more opportunity for higher spending all at once.

Someone with those issues isn't not going to buy everything when it is all in front of them, but will when it's only limited time.

And again, those people should be monitored by themselves, friends and specialists, not buy the people trying to sell things.

With that said, do limited time sales generate more sales? Yes. But it would only become predatory if you made people believe said items were limited time, increasing the demand (and usually the price to a premium) AND THEN made them available at a later time. Then it becomes a predatory tactic. Because you've lied in order to force a premium sale onto someone.

If that item is indeed never coming back, then it's not predatory. Especially when your are being honest about said items being replaced every month, and that -- as Steven said clearly on the live stream more than once -- he doesn't want you to buy it if you're not sure or if you prefer to wait until later, even up to the game launch.

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