maybe not a dps meter but what about this...

What do you guys think about this idea that I just got...? There is a lot of people who do not want dps meters and there is a lot of people who want to improve skill rotation, right? What if we had a trainig zone were there are those Training Dummy which tells you how´s doing dps doing compare to other players? if ya want to see how you are actually doing so you must go to the training zone and check it out, these Trainig Dummy could copilate all the info from others players and let you know if your dps is low/medium or high (just lets us knows if very low,low, high,medium.etc)

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Recluse74

My God....

Top players? Players who needed assistance to get there... Top Players? Really?

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

You know what will not have combat trackers and will still be toxic? This forum.......

Anyone for combat trackers in AoC has basically 2 choices...

1. Find another game if it bothers you that much.
2. Use one anyway, and don't get caught.

There ... it is settled!

Fortunately, option 2 is really easy.

In fact, it would be hard to get caught using one - you'd basically have to go out of your way.

We have covered this many of times.. We both know this to be the case..Why do you constantly post it as if it were new information? Why do you constantly argue to have these put in game, when they wont (at launch)?

Just use the ones you keep talking about, pass them along to all your friends, rush to end game content, call your guild the best ever on the internet, bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself and then quit the game because you have nothing to do.... That way the rest of us can play and have fun.

Saedu

I was chatting with my GM in WoW last night. He's a cool/chill guy who has selflessly helped hundreds of guildies in just the past year alone. Super non-toxic.

He's been semi-following AoC and when I told him there was no trackers he said he wouldn't ever play the game seriously like he does WoW. He sees this type if tool as too critical to not have as it helps him help others. Sad thing is if he did decide to go big in this game he would probably bring a hundred or so people from the guild with him too (who are also generally good players and mostly non-toxic).

That's the type or people this decision alienates... top notch leaders.

Look at real world business... ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. It's the poor leaders that just go with their gut only. From this angle I think it's crazy to not want combat trackers. The excuses against it seem to be to protect/hide bad players who don't want to go past casual level and want to get carried by others... I don't see any top end competitive gamers not wanting meters... do we want good players in this game or not?

Recluse74 wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

I was chatting with my GM in WoW last night. He's a cool/chill guy who has selflessly helped hundreds of guildies in just the past year alone. Super non-toxic.

He's been semi-following AoC and when I told him there was no trackers he said he wouldn't ever play the game seriously like he does WoW. He sees this type if tool as too critical to not have as it helps him help others. Sad thing is if he did decide to go big in this game he would probably bring a hundred or so people from the guild with him too (who are also generally good players and mostly non-toxic).

That's the type or people this decision alienates... top notch leaders.

Loom at real world business... ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. It's the poor leaders that just go with their gut only. From this angle I think it's crazy to not want combat trackers. The excuses against it seem to be to protect/hide bad players who don't want to go past casual level and want to get carried by others... I don't see any top end competitive gamers not wanting meters... do we want good players in this game or not?

Business world... Fantasy Video Game... I see your logic.................................................................................

Work had play hard my friend

Tragnar

Recluse74 wrote: »

Just use the ones you keep talking about, pass them along to all your friends, rush to end game content, call your guild the best ever on the internet, bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself and then quit the game because you have nothing to do.... That way the rest of us can play and have fun.

Having ingame leaderboards for dungeons and raids basically means that the content is near infinite, because players have an incentive to speedrun themselves for better placings and higher placing on a server wide leaderboard automatically gives a server wide prestige for the guild

Your "rushing" argument makes literally zero sense, because from design standpoint ashes strives to be player created content driven game

Your post shows that you think ashes is going to be themepark game where "playing too much" means that you run out of content. So please go to ashes wiki and read what game systems ashes aims to have and then rejoin the discussion

Recluse74

Saedu wrote: »

I was chatting with my GM in WoW last night. He's a cool/chill guy who has selflessly helped hundreds of guildies in just the past year alone. Super non-toxic.

He's been semi-following AoC and when I told him there was no trackers he said he wouldn't ever play the game seriously like he does WoW. He sees this type if tool as too critical to not have as it helps him help others. Sad thing is if he did decide to go big in this game he would probably bring a hundred or so people from the guild with him too (who are also generally good players and mostly non-toxic).

That's the type or people this decision alienates... top notch leaders.

Loom at real world business... ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions. It's the poor leaders that just go with their gut only. From this angle I think it's crazy to not want combat trackers. The excuses against it seem to be to protect/hide bad players who don't want to go past casual level and want to get carried by others... I don't see any top end competitive gamers not wanting meters... do we want good players in this game or not?

Business world... Fantasy Video Game... I see your logic.................................................................................

Biccus

Recluse74 wrote: »

bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself

Combat trackers tell you what’s happened in the past. They don’t tell you what is the best build/rotation is most effective unless you’ve... wait for it.. “did it yourself” already.

If you don’t want combat trackers then you can’t claim to have competitiv PvE in my opinion.

Recluse74

Tragnar wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Just use the ones you keep talking about, pass them along to all your friends, rush to end game content, call your guild the best ever on the internet, bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself and then quit the game because you have nothing to do.... That way the rest of us can play and have fun.

Having ingame leaderboards for dungeons and raids basically means that the content is near infinite, because players have an incentive to speedrun themselves for better placings and higher placing on a server wide leaderboard automatically gives a server wide prestige for the guild

Your "rushing" argument makes literally zero sense, because from design standpoint ashes strives to be player created content driven game

Your post shows that you think ashes is going to be themepark game where "playing too much" means that you run out of content. So please go to ashes wiki and read what game systems ashes aims to have and then rejoin the discussion

Sigh.... Most of the player content driven mechanics will have PvP involved. Sure, leaderboards in dungeons.. had no clue, do not care. Why? Because I cannot compete with people using tools to get better. Which is a point sorely missed on the whole lot of you. You effectively cut out most of the competition with the use of a tracker. Congrats on your leet, top player status.

Recluse74

Biccus wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself

Combat trackers tell you what’s happened in the past. They don’t tell you what is the best build/rotation is most effective unless you’ve... wait for it.. “did it yourself” already.

If you don’t want combat trackers then you can’t claim to have competitiv PvE in my opinion.

This makes no sense...

If you do it all yourself, what is the tracker for? It must do something for you, right?

If trackers are not used how do you compete? Practice? Communication between players? I do not know.. how did people compete before trackers were involved?

Dygz

Saedu wrote: »

He's been semi-following AoC and when I told him there was no trackers he said he wouldn't ever play the game seriously like he does WoW. He sees this type of tool as too critical to not have as it helps him help others. Sad thing is if he did decide to go big in this game he would probably bring a hundred or so people from the guild with him too (who are also generally good players and mostly non-toxic).

There is nothing sad about him assuming he will never play this game seriously since he has never played the game and doesn't truly know how he will feel about playing Ashes without a combat tracker.

He thinks it's critical for other games. That doesn't mean he will find it to be critical for Ashes gameplay.

Dygz

Biccus wrote: »

If you don’t want combat trackers then you can’t claim to have competitive PvE in my opinion.

Ashes is a PvX game that has competition.
I don't know that Ashes claims to have competitive PvE as any kind of focus.
However much competitive PvE Ashes might have, the devs feel you will be able to accomplish that to the degree they want without the inclusion of combat trackers.

Tragnar

Recluse74 wrote: »

Sigh.... Most of the player content driven mechanics will have PvP involved. Sure, leaderboards in dungeons.. had no clue, do not care. Why? Because I cannot compete with people using tools to get better. Which is a point sorely missed on the whole lot of you. You effectively cut out most of the competition with the use of a tracker. Congrats on your leet, top player status.

If you can be good only in environment where it is impossible to figure out how well are you doing then I am truly sorry for you, because Ashes is never going to be a game for you since people will write and follow guides and guides too are a tool. Word of mouth of what works for players is a tool as well, because you used your human mouth or fingers that in itself are tools that you were born with to share that information with others.

You just can't bring the early 2000's and the extreme scarcity of information available, the only way is to use time machine to go back in time

And please do not even try to write that ingame trackers do for personal performance more than using a guide on the internet

Helikeon

Every single game that has dps meters (that I have personally played) has been toxic to some degree, and had a majority toxic community. It starts with the self called 'pro players' and then casual players either adopt it thinking it's something they need or are forced into it to conform, and all the while the stated reason for dps meters are 'to make the game better' or 'I only want to improve my own rotation' - yet go into a game like wow, run a dungeon and see how long it is before someone spams a meter; this person will invariably be at the top.

No one at the bottom of the meter will ever spam it into chat. it's not kept private, to inform the player only, it's used as a stick to beat other people with we all know this, just like we all know that not every class will be balanced with every other class.

Dps meters dont take into account what gear someone has. it doesn't show that someone stopped dpsing because they saw an environmental hazard and moved to a different location.Sometimes they can when used correctly to identify why 2 of the same class (for EG) perform differently but the average dps meter user will only use them to brag and belittle others.

anyone crying they had to 'carry' someone because that someone did not do as much damage as they could, needs to ask themselves why they peaked in high school. Encounters are never balanced for a perfect team, the same way games companies never make games that will only run on the highest spec PC - they would be putting themselves out of business.

I play video games for enjoyment. if YOU get enjoyment by doing as much damage as you possibly can, then good for you! just remember that now you have created a two tier community: the 'pro (lmao) players vs the people that actually like the lore and want to be social and just play without something feeling like a second job, y'know like us oldies did back in 1999 in Asheron's Call.

Even if dps meters really are just so people can practice their rotation and ONLY be able to record their own dps and NEVER see anyone elses people will demand everyone pastes their own parse after each fight, it's how people are these days.

go into world of warcraft - sit down and read the chat. the toxicity is amazing - Looking for 2 rdps for xyz MUST HAVE blah blah gearscore, link achievement (so you can prove you have done it before (we dont want anyone who has never done it before they might make a mistake- gasp!) then a number - the damage output they are looking for; because these pro players want an easy ride.

they want to pull the ladder up behind them and make everyone else who has a job or commitments to look up to them and their top tier pixels as a badge of honour because thats all they have.

BlackBrony

Saedu wrote: »

ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions.

Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged.
I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself.
It's like asking for drugs in sports because players want to push themselves to new extremes, I don't get the logic.

Clearly combat trackers are used to make content easy because in a few pulls you have an overall feeling of the encounter.

Tragnar

Helikeon wrote: »

Every single game that has dps meters (that I have personally played) has been toxic to some degree, and had a majority toxic community. It starts with the self called 'pro players' and then casual players either adopt it thinking it's something they need or are forced into it to conform, and all the while the stated reason for dps meters are 'to make the game better' or 'I only want to improve my own rotation' - yet go into a game like wow, run a dungeon and see how long it is before someone spams a meter; this person will invariably be at the top.

“One of the first things taught in introductory statistics textbooks is that correlation is not causation. It is also one of the first things forgotten.”― Thomas Sowell

No one at the bottom of the meter will ever spam it into chat. it's not kept private, to inform the player only, it's used as a stick to beat other people with we all know this, just like we all know that not every class will be balanced with every other class.

In what terrible guilds were you part of? Truly I am sorry for you, because the bottom of dps meters are usually filled with support players and I have not seen in the guilds I've been part of to beat those players for being there

Dps meters dont take into account what gear someone has. it doesn't show that someone stopped dpsing because they saw an environmental hazard and moved to a different location.Sometimes they can when used correctly to identify why 2 of the same class (for EG) perform differently but the average dps meter user will only use them to brag and belittle others.

Truly amazing - you are one of the people that download a meter only to stare like a junkie on its front page with dps - All meters that I've used had all other stats that told you exactly what happened to them - literally everything that the combat log shows - and tell me what average dps meter users you know that are bragging their average dps?

anyone crying they had to 'carry' someone because that someone did not do as much damage as they could, needs to ask themselves why they peaked in high school. Encounters are never balanced for a perfect team, the same way games companies never make games that will only run on the highest spec PC - they would be putting themselves out of business.

Almost nobody gives a shit if others did 20% less damage then you, but if you are doing literally more damage than all other damage dealers combined (considering 5man group) then there is something seriously wrong with those players

I play video games for enjoyment. if YOU get enjoyment by doing as much damage as you possibly can, then good for you! just remember that now you have created a two tier community: the 'pro (lmao) players vs the people that actually like the lore and want to be social and just play without something feeling like a second job, y'know like us oldies did back in 1999 in Asheron's Call.

Wow so you dont want to invest as much time into the game? Do you even realize that time investment works only for power that you gain from gear, but the rest of it might be that you are just weak player? If you don't play a game for highscore, but for experience then nobody should tell you otherwise, but to belittle players that play for highscores is just so childish of you

Even if dps meters really are just so people can practice their rotation and ONLY be able to record their own dps and NEVER see anyone elses people will demand everyone pastes their own parse after each fight, it's how people are these days.

go into world of warcraft - sit down and read the chat. the toxicity is amazing - Looking for 2 rdps for xyz MUST HAVE blah blah gearscore, link achievement (so you can prove you have done it before (we dont want anyone who has never done it before they might make a mistake- gasp!) then a number - the damage output they are looking for; because these pro players want an easy ride.

Someone doesnt know the difference between addons that evaluate gear and addons that track what happened in combat - why do you bring unrelated addon in here?

they want to pull the ladder up behind them and make everyone else who has a job or commitments to look up to them and their top tier pixels as a badge of honour because thats all they have.

@Helikeon The last paragraph is pure gem with the sea of salt for being a bad player

I get it - you get angry when people want to be rewarded for what they've accomplished in a game. Which means that you get less participation awards, because you can't invest a lot of time to the game since you are actually contributing to society with an actual work!!

Amel

Helikeon wrote: »

Dps meters dont take into account what gear someone has. it doesn't show that someone stopped dpsing because they saw an environmental hazard and moved to a different location.Sometimes they can when used correctly to identify why 2 of the same class (for EG) perform differently but the average dps meter user will only use them to brag and belittle others.

I'm baffled by the fact you think like this. Do you really think all the people that use combat trackers think like this? I've been raiding at the top end of WoW for a long time and everytime we invite new players that don't have enough gear or haven't seen the fights, we understand it's a given that their damage won't be optimal, that they'll make mistakes, it's part of the learning curve. If a new player dies during a fight and he doesn't know what killed him, having a combat tracker makes is so much easier for the player to improve if the veterans can tell him exactly what happened and how to avoid it next time. Also, if I'm in a raid and someone of the same class as me is doing 30% more damage and has the same gear as me, I want to know what he's doing that i'm not so that i can become a better player.

Helikeon wrote: »

yet go into a game like wow, run a dungeon and see how long it is before someone spams a meter; this person will invariably be at the top.

Been playing WoW since vanilla and I cannot remember the last time I pugged a dungeon and this happened. Nor would I care if they did and I was bottom dps.

Helikeon wrote: »

I play video games for enjoyment. if YOU get enjoyment by doing as much damage as you possibly can, then good for you! just remember that now you have created a two tier community: the 'pro (lmao) players vs the people that actually like the lore and want to be social and just play without something feeling like a second job, y'know like us oldies did back in 1999 in Asheron's Call.

You make it sound black and white. Your view seems to be everyone who's better than me is a try-harding elitist. There is a class of player that do enjoy the social aspect but still want to clear the hardest content a game has to offer, the 2 tier you mentioned aren't mutually exclusive.

Helikeon wrote: »

Even if dps meters really are just so people can practice their rotation and ONLY be able to record their own dps and NEVER see anyone elses people will demand everyone pastes their own parse after each fight, it's how people are these days.

No they won't, nobody cares about the dps meter when the boss dies.

Helikeon wrote: »

they want to pull the ladder up behind them and make everyone else who has a job or commitments to look up to them and their top tier pixels as a badge of honour because thats all they have.

That is just blatantly false, top end players want MORE top end players so that they can find groups faster, find new guildmates so that when people leave or move on from the game they can get replaced seamlessly.

Recluse74

Tragnar wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

Sigh.... Most of the player content driven mechanics will have PvP involved. Sure, leaderboards in dungeons.. had no clue, do not care. Why? Because I cannot compete with people using tools to get better. Which is a point sorely missed on the whole lot of you. You effectively cut out most of the competition with the use of a tracker. Congrats on your leet, top player status.

If you can be good only in environment where it is impossible to figure out how well are you doing then I am truly sorry for you, because Ashes is never going to be a game for you since people will write and follow guides and guides too are a tool. Word of mouth of what works for players is a tool as well, because you used your human mouth or fingers that in itself are tools that you were born with to share that information with others.

You just can't bring the early 2000's and the extreme scarcity of information available, the only way is to use time machine to go back in time

And please do not even try to write that ingame trackers do for personal performance more than using a guide on the internet

No need to feel sorry for me, I don't. As for this game being for me or not.. Obviously it is for me because the developers do not want trackers. I am on board with that, take your logic and apply it to yourself and obviously this game is not for you.

Steven is making this game to resemble games from the early 2000's (Lineage 2)... So I can use your argument and say do not bring your new age tools and try to cheat the feeling the developers are trying to create.

As far as youtube and guides.... Thank you for providing an alternative to using a tracker, as you can see by your logic, you do not need one as you provided another way to get info.

Appreciate the help.

Noaani

Recluse74 wrote: »

We have covered this many of times.. We both know this to be the case..Why do you constantly post it as if it were new information?

For the same reason you felt compelled to post that post - there are other people that read it.

If you think I am going to leave a post like that unchallenged, you are just outright wrong.

Recluse74 wrote: »

Biccus wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself

Combat trackers tell you what’s happened in the past. They don’t tell you what is the best build/rotation is most effective unless you’ve... wait for it.. “did it yourself” already.

If you don’t want combat trackers then you can’t claim to have competitiv PvE in my opinion.

This makes no sense...

If you do it all yourself, what is the tracker for? It must do something for you, right?

If you don't know what a combat tracker does, and how it does and does not help people, why are you discussing them?

I'll say it again for you though, if you are using a combat tracker, there should be NOTHING on your screen in relation to said combat tracker during combat. No statistics flashing, nothing at all.

And combat trackers most certainly do not help you with a build. A build calculator does far more in that regard than a combat tracker, and a build calculator does about 10% of what the average games forum does in getting people sorted for their build.

Literally all a combat tracker does in terms of builds is give you objective data on the build you are using. It does not offer any suggestions on a potential build - but if you are smart you may be able to take the information a combat tracker tells you and work out for yourself how to improve it.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

Saedu wrote: »

ALL of the good leaders use data to help make decisions.

Yes, this is true. But if you read what @Noaani said, they want a Combat tracker because they want a harder challenged.
I don't understand this. If you want something so complex that you need a Combat Tracker for it, then is not that complex, you're just assisting yourself.

The more data you have, the more complex a problem you can solve. I assume this is a statement everyone agrees with.

Now, based on that, the more data we have with combat in Ashes, the more complex encounters the developers are able to make for us.

Now, the developers of an MMO are able to make content difficult enough for it to be impossible to kill - even with trackers. Based on this, the notion of actual difficulty is a pointless discussion in relation to trackers.

However, what is worth discussing is how much more enjoyable a complex encounter is to take on than a simple encounter - and again, data is key to solving complexity.

So, combat trackers = more complex encounters = more fun.

Sure, sometimes we do talk about difficulty, but complexity is what we )or at least I) actually mean. The two do go somewhat hand in hand, however, Complex encounters will be harder than simple encounters, all other factors being the same. The reason calling them complex rather than difficult is more accurate is because all other factors need not be the same. However, it is that complexity that makes encounters fun, not raw difficulty.

You could have an encounter that requires 100% perfect DPS and healing, but if that is all there is to it, you have a hard, simple, boring encounter.

Songcaller

Complexity used to come from specific skills being required for specific bosses. If you didn't build the raid for a Necromancer for example, you couldn't progress against Necrotic Bosses without some major time investment. I don't see how a parser adds complexity at all. If a parser is dictating complexity then the boss fights would be rather simplistic in a raw form. All a parser does is record the fight and show where someone has taken excess damage/death. In boss fights people can see why someone has died. This is especially true when the bosses have phases or visual indicators for the skills.

The issue with parsers remains the widespread use for anything and everything. I don't particularly want to be in an 8 Man Group content with some radical spamming a Parser for the lols. I don't want bland raids where a parser dictates the actions. I want an invigorated raid where actions matter and choices matter. Namely, the choices made when you build the raid. I don't want raid blocks on who I can and can't accept based of DPS Numbers or some other limiting factor brought about by parsers.

The truth remains the boss fights we are seeing are still lacklustre and rather bland anyway, a parser isn't even needed for the current boss fights. The saving grace becomes the fact that PvP can occur at these boss fights (or so I believe). I do not agree with the mindset that Good PvE requires a parser and bad PvE doesn't need a parser. I want Good PvE without a Parser but the contestation means most Boss Encounters will be rather bland until PvP fights happen around the Boss Encounter. Its a difficult balance to achieve and I don't envy IS the task. I also appreciate IS' stance on no parsers too.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

All a parser does is record the fight and show where someone has taken excess damage/death.

Yes, but a combat tracker means an encounter can have more such abilities, each with different conditions, while the developers still have confidence that the appropriate raid is able to identify them all and then work out a strategy to defeat them.

Also, the notion of needing a specific ability to deal with a specific mechanic is an overly simple encounter design - that is not adding complexity.

Neurath wrote: »

The truth remains the boss fights we are seeing are still lacklustre and rather bland anyway, a parser isn't even needed for the current boss fights.

The current boss fights are all placeholder.

It is far too early for Intrepid to be able to design top end encounters - they need to have the combat system nailed before they can do that.

Even then, MMO's don't release with overly good raid encounters. It takes the players a year or two to work out how to best use the games combat system (even with a combat tracker), and it is only then that developers can begin to design really good encounters.

One need only compare the encounter design (not nostalgia) of WoW's vanilla raids to those in WotLK to see this - almost all MMO's get their best raid content 3 - 5 years after release.

Recluse74

Noaani wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

We have covered this many of times.. We both know this to be the case..Why do you constantly post it as if it were new information?

For the same reason you felt compelled to post that post - there are other people that read it.

If you think I am going to leave a post like that unchallenged, you are just outright wrong.

Recluse74 wrote: »

Biccus wrote: »

Recluse74 wrote: »

bask in the glow from all the statistics flashing on your screen, act as though you did all yourself

Combat trackers tell you what’s happened in the past. They don’t tell you what is the best build/rotation is most effective unless you’ve... wait for it.. “did it yourself” already.

If you don’t want combat trackers then you can’t claim to have competitiv PvE in my opinion.

This makes no sense...

If you do it all yourself, what is the tracker for? It must do something for you, right?

If you don't know what a combat tracker does, and how it does and does not help people, why are you discussing them?

I will give you the fact you had a right to challenge it, not that it makes you correct

I know what they do, they said they did it themselves... which if they used a tracker, the tracker did most of the work, they just read it and then tweaked things. You are not doing it yourself if there is a tracker involved.

Child Item