Of 40 player Instanced Raiding and 40 player Pvp, which requires the most skill?

Time for something different.

I have always believed that the challenge of competing against another player will always trump that of a computer programmed encounter, but happy to be convinced otherwise.

Of 40 player Instanced Raiding and 40 player Pvp, which requires the most skill?

Assume pvp is 20 v 20.
Assume raid is 40 players
Both scenarios the dream teams.

Poll attached.
https://strawpoll.com/8xd5uwfwc

Keep it general as it is only a lose generalization.

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Comments

akabear

And, he starts the poll by voting opposite to thinking.. baka.

maouw

If it's dream teams, then it's PvP hands down.
You cannot compare a scripted boss fight to the dynamics of PvP.

In League of Legends (it's only 5v5 but still relevant, I think), someone who plays bots all day knows how to cheese the bots and get early leads etc.
PvP players on the other hand have to be able to think on their toes, and counter other people's creative plans.

If you put a PvP player in a bot game, they might not know how to cheese the bots for early leads, but they know their own limits and adapt very quickly to a bots playstyle.
Put a bot player in a PvP game and they have: low map awareness, low understanding of vision, low ability to predict where other players are, inexperienced with enemies changing tactics, inexperienced with other players trying to bait out their skills (which bosses don't do).

Vhaeyne

I don't have a good answer for that poll. I did sit and think about it for more than a minute.

The issue is that instanced PvE and Open world PvP are challenging in different ways.

Instanced PvE can be extremely hard and unforgiving during prog, but once a fight is on farm you might find it to be boring. Even if that fight the hardest boss in the game, some phases might put you to sleep once you know them really well.

Open world PvP is just random. Sometimes your opponents will be equally geared and skilled and give you a fight that pushes you to your limit. Other times one side is clearly superior and the fight is impossible or too easy.

If I had to answer I would say that Instanced PvE is generally harder during prog, but open world PvP is has the potential to be harder on average (Especially if your guilds gear is not the best on the server).

I don't think there is a clear answer. Players are always pushing the skill ceiling in PvP further, and asking the DEVs to push the skill ceiling in PvR further too.

Inixia

40 player raiding is harder IMO, that's a ton of people to try to coordinate assuming a boss is actually designed to be challenging for a raid group that size. You'd have to explain the fight, coordinate mechanics like st heals and keep voice comms clear, etc... But its a lot easier if its just an open world boss that you are just overwhelming with numbers.

Likewise I think more people in a pvp match makes things easier - because after a certain point most battles start to be won by numbers rather than tactics. I actually think pvp is harder in general at a smaller scale but when it turns into largescale fights, games tends to either lock up because there's too much healing going around, or start to become really ganky once one team wins the first fight and gains momentum, and the other team is picked off before they can really regroup. Also when pvp size is too large it shifts weighting away from frontline and flanking classes and more towards aoe and support classes that really benefit from having bodies around them to protect.

Dreoh

PvP is always more complex than PvE, and thus requires more skill.

Anyone arguing that PvE requires more skill than PvP isn't being honest, or doesn't have a good understanding of one of the two.

PvE is scripted, 100%.
This is a fundamental, unavoidable fact.
PvE can be randomized, but only to the extent the developers put in to it.
The skill ceiling of PvE is the point of "I understand this preset mechanic and how to react to it"
In a multiplayer setting, it turns in to "We understand this preset mechanic and trust each other to know how to react and to react to it"

PvP is entirely unscripted, 100%
This is a fundamental, unavoidable fact.
PvP can be rehearsed, but only to the extent the players can adhere to what they practiced and only so long as a new scenario doesn't arise.
The Skill ceiling of PvP is as limitless as the skill ceiling of your opponent.
In a multiplayer setting, it becomes as limitless as the combined exponential skill ceilings of your opponents.

You can rehearse a boss fight to perfection, even if it has random elements.
You can not by principle rehearse human interaction to perfection.

A 40 person raid is difficult because only because you have to trust 39 other players to know how to react as well as yourself to a single scenario. It's difficult, but it's more apt to say it's tedious.

A 20v20 pvp scenario is difficult because you have to react to 20 enemies who are reacting to the 20 of you in an endless cycle.

Edit: Any fighting game player will tell you 10 times out of 10 that playing a competitive player is harder than a cpu
Before anyone says, "Well that's fighting games, not a raid encounter", a raid encounter is just a more complex version of a CPU, with more players added.

Littlekenny21

I think it depends on the combat system. If it's designed with group PvP in mind instead of just PvE and a little bit of small scale PvP, then I think the group PvP would be the one that requires more skill due to the fact that humans are not as restricted in the different things they can do as a raid boss is.

If it isn't designed with group PvP in mind, it's likely one would be able to overwhelm with numbers (I know the question specifies 20v20), or be able to cheese with things that can't be countered e.g. 100%-0% bursts within un-preventable crowd control and other things which wouldn't give players the opportunity to demonstrate their skill.

Dygz

Well, keep in mind that a lot of scripting for AI in CRPGs is to keep the AI predictable (for repeated battles) and to make it reasonably possible for the mob/boss to be defeated rather than outright killing player characters every time.

What's being asked here seems to be whether a raid battle where the script is known is more difficult than a PvP battle. Explaining the fight means that the boss has been defeated often enough for people to devise a repeatable strategy that is consistently successful. That is comparing apples and oranges.

The valid comparison is how difficult is the initial battle with the boss, before the script is known by the players compared to a PvP battle.

Littlekenny21

Dygz wrote: »

Well, keep in mind that a lot of scripting for AI in CRPGs is to keep the AI predictable (for repeated battles) and to make it reasonably possible for the mob/boss to be defeated rather than outright killing player characters every time.

What's being asked here seems to be whether a raid battle where the script is known is more difficult than a PvP battle. Explaining the fight means that the boss has been defeated often enough for people to devise a repeatable strategy that is consistently successful. That is comparing apples and oranges.

The valid comparison is how difficult is the initial battle with the boss, before the script is known by the players compared to a PvP battle.

Good point, the raid encounter is something that starts very hard and gets easier over time where the PvP (assuming combat doesn't suck) will be fairly consistent ("Both scenarios the dream teams.").

If the question specified killing the raid boss in a single attempt, that might change my answer.

Jamation

Although raids might be challenging, eventually you'll have guides, walkthroughs, and people who can destroy a raid simply by sound alone.
People...living people? There is no guide to the mayhem and chaos they can create.

Anything programmed is like a 100 piece sliding puzzle box. Might seem daunting at first, but after a while you start to see the patterns to success.

Anything with real people is like trying to solve a 1000 piece sliding puzzle box, but each puzzle is different for each person encountered. You might be able to learn the basics of a class, recognize some of the skill animations, but at the end of the day there's no way to really tell what a person could do.

Random story time: When I was a child my uncle let me play one of his MMO characters. I had no idea what I was doing and I liked jumping around. He wanted to scare me a bit so he brought me to this PvP place and told me that anyone could kill me. I was so terrified that I kept slinking around, waiting for his long cooldown skills to recharge and such so that I'd be safe. I saw this castle thing and wanted to explore it. He knew it would be a hotspot for enemies, but he didn't realize that I was a foolish child and wouldn't try to enter the normal way. I somehow managed to jump into a window and ran up these stairs to the top. There was this flag there so my innocent little self clicked on it. I sat there and waited and suddenly I see a ton of red names around me. I panic and give the keyboard back to my Uncle, but it was too late the character had died, but the flag had been taken. On the dead body screen we could see members from his own faction/alliance/whatever it was called fighting against the people that had killed me and because they were distracted they managed to defeat them. I was a kid with no experience of this random game (I don't even remember what it was, but I still mention bring it up to him sometimes because it was so insane) and managed to steal away an important keep from these experienced players.

Basically, people fall into the habit of thinking there are patterns to people, but if we rely too heavily on that it'll come back to bite us.

All of this was to say I'm very bad at PvP and it scares me.

Inixia

I think pvp is one of the most adaptive and fun gameplay modes, especially with veteran players, but just to defend raiding a little bit in this thread (bc it seems to be under more attack).. I think people are putting too much embellishment on the idea that pvp is by default more difficult just because other players are complex and unscripted. That's definitely true to an extent, but to win the average game or to beat the average person?

Raiding might be 100% scripted, but you're still going up against something that has a much much larger health pool than you (or other players) and was designed to test your long term coordination rather than burst attacks and first strikes - meaning your team has to learn and maintain that dance for a while before you can beat it. It being scripted and you having a guide doesn't automatically equate to an easy fight, and sure it definitely gets easier over time, but how many people really beat raid bosses on the first go? A good tuned encounter should take more than a few attempts to beat. A pvp match? You should have a pretty good shot without knowing too much about the other team just by knowing general mechanics, and a roll of the dice.

Dreoh

If we were to make it an accurate comparison to a first time raid, we'd have to assume you know nothing about the classes the enemy is playing and what abilities they have, same as how you don't know what a new raid boss can do.

Inixia wrote: »

...
Raiding might be 100% scripted, but you're still going up against something that has a much much larger health pool than you and was designed to test your coordination - meaning your team has to learn and maintain that dance for a while before you can beat it. It being scripted and you having a guide doesn't automatically equate to an easy fight, and sure it definitely gets easier over time, but how many people really beat raid bosses on the first go?
...

See here I'd say your scenario about a raid encounter isn't a fight of skill, it's a fight of attrition. "How long can we dance this dance perfectly until his health pool is gone"

Inixia wrote: »

...
A pvp match? You should have a pretty good shot without knowing too much about the other team just by knowing general mechanics, and a roll of the dice.

You have a pretty good shot in a pvp match because it's (on paper) a fair fight, a 50% chance of winning. But just because it's a "fair fight" doesn't mean it lacks skill. To win a pvp match you have to be thinking creatively and be constantly aware of your actions, your opponents actions and your opponents potential actions. You have to juggle all of that at the same time, and whoever can do that the best (player mechanical skill allowing) wins. Not to mention you're doing that for 20 fully-aware enemies.

In a PvE fight, you're also juggling your actions, the bosses actions and their potential actions yes, but you don't have to juggle as many possibilities, as there is base entity behaviors and things you can rely on, such as threat and pathing.

Khronus

This question requires very little thought because of the dream team aspect.

40 player raid with the dream team = practice means you win the encounter. They don't design PVE as impossible. It's 100% beatable. Difficult to learn? no....not for the dream team.

20v20 PvP. dream team vs dream team is NOT a guaranteed win. It depends on the choices that each individual player makes. Any individual player can make the mistake that causes the loss. You could argue that any individual can make the mistake to cause a loss in a 40 man raid but, no, you cannot.....they are the dream team remember?

Inixia

Dreoh wrote: »

See here I'd say your scenario about a raid encounter isn't a fight of skill, it's a fight of attrition. "How long can we dance this dance perfectly until his health pool is gone"

Why not both? Attrition can also take skill... those aren't exclusive, there's a lot of skill to being able to consistently and carefully manage your movement and skills for awhile instead of in the moment.

Dreoh wrote: »

You have a pretty good shot in a pvp match because it's (on paper) a fair fight, a 50% chance of winning. But just because it's a "fair fight" doesn't mean it lacks skill. To win a pvp match you have to be thinking creatively and be constantly aware of your actions, your opponents actions and your opponents potential actions.

I don't think pvp lacks skill, especially at higher levels. I'm not anti-pvp by any stretch I did it a lot in both eq2 and Rift and had a blast (some of my best mmo moments tbh - l even got to help demonstrate that a certain necro spec was viable in Rift pvp when a lot of people undersold it, loved that). Pvp definitely takes skill, for all the reasons you mentioned. So on this we definitely agree.

Dreoh wrote: »

Not to mention you're doing that for 20 fully-aware enemies.

in theory... in practice you don't always have to be acutely aware of the entire enemy roster and their potential actions, more a general sense of your situation and spacing.

Dreoh wrote: »

In a PvE fight, you're also juggling your actions, the bosses actions and their potential actions yes, but you don't have to juggle as many possibilities, as there is base entity behaviors and things you can rely on, such as threat and pathing.

One thing going for raid boss possibilities is that they are usually designed to test a wide range of player skillsets and abilities to keep gameplay fresh and unique (mechanics that you won't generally see in pvp as they would be imbalanced if abused). But you're right of course players have the potential to keep things consistently fresh just by adaptation, which raid bosses don't do. Although players don't adapt as much as people think in the average game. What I missed is that this is supposed to be for 'dream teams' though (thanks Khronus for pointing that out) so ok I concede, pvp is likely harder at those levels.
I guess my 2c is that I think raiding is relatively harder to do well but easier to master.

Blackhearted

I think the difference is that for PvE devs have control over difficulty.
In PvP theres room for mistakes only when ur enemy mistakes and fails to capitalize on them.
PvE human error one side
PvP human error both sides

PvE encounter can be designed to wipe raid for doing one mistake but in PvP both sides make mistakes.
Ramble...

akabear

Own experience with pvp in a less than 20v20 is that a round may only last seconds, maybe a few minutes at most.. Half the time no warm-up nor prep time and other half well plans quickly has to change as rare to have an enemy do as predicted.

Where as raids perhaps intense for a moment or short stints but if not a new encounter, then reasonably premediated responses until the next intensity.. and much of the difficulty is alleviated when the mechanics are well known and responses rehearsed.

akabear

As the OP, I proposed this discussion to lead on to where then might the monster coin events fit.

Are they pve raid or pvp considering the mob is controlled by a player and as such, where do players see the complexity / difficulty of these "raid" vs other AI raids?

Khronus

@akabear it's hard to compare without personally experiencing or knowing everything there is to know about these events. That being said, when PVE events include player vs player combat and the outcome of such is determined by the pvp combat, the event itself is pvp. They will be as difficult as any other pvp event since it will rely on the players to make the right decisions, use the right rotations and complete the objectives to win.

If we really want to get the grey matter warmed up, we can discuss the difficulty most guilds will have during world raids in populated areas. I think this way because of how many years development companies have held their players hands and catered to every squeaky wheel until most mmorpgs became pay to win cash shops or watered down versions of themselves. There will be a massive learning curve for most players.

Noaani

I'm going to weigh in here using simple math, but first, a single assumption.

I am assuming we are talking about top end, instanced raid content. If we are not, then this doesn't hold true. From there, the numbers I am giving are all best case scenario.

WIth top end raid content, you often spend several weeks working on one encounter. Even if that is only two nights a week for four hours each, with pulls happening about every 15 minutes, that is 32 attempts a week.

If we asume it took 4 weeks to get the kill on this encounter, that means we have had 128 pulls.

In most games, a top end encounter is only relavent for maybe 6 - 9 months, and is killed weekly.

This means that for that 128 pulls that ended in a wipe, we then go on to have maybe 39 kills.

I'm going to round those numbers to 160 total pulls, and 40 kills. So, the raid wins 25% of the time.

In PvP, when two teams are involved, one team always wins, one team always loses. This means there is a 50% win rate in PvP.

So, straight up, mathmatically, raiding is twice as hard.

Again, the above numbers are all lowballed for top end raiding. Most top end encounters encounters take several hundred pulls, not a little over a hundred.

Dygz

Ah!
I think specifically with monster coin events - player-run monsters will be way more challenging than scripted monsters. I guess we might have to see how long it takes players to get used to the monster abilities they're using..

Dreoh

Noaani wrote: »

I'm going to weigh in here using simple math, but first, a single assumption.

I am assuming we are talking about top end, instanced raid content. If we are not, then this doesn't hold true. From there, the numbers I am giving are all best case scenario.

WIth top end raid content, you often spend several weeks working on one encounter. Even if that is only two nights a week for four hours each, with pulls happening about every 15 minutes, that is 32 attempts a week.

If we asume it took 4 weeks to get the kill on this encounter, that means we have had 128 pulls.

In most games, a top end encounter is only relavent for maybe 6 - 9 months, and is killed weekly.

This means that for that 128 pulls that ended in a wipe, we then go on to have maybe 39 kills.

I'm going to round those numbers to 160 total pulls, and 40 kills. So, the raid wins 25% of the time.

In PvP, when two teams are involved, one team always wins, one team always loses. This means there is a 50% win rate in PvP.

So, straight up, mathmatically, raiding is twice as hard.

Again, the above numbers are all lowballed for top end raiding. Most top end encounters encounters take several hundred pulls, not a little over a hundred.

Number crunching isn't a valid assessment of skill in this scenario. It's a misuse of statistics.

The question wasn't "Which has a lower win rate"

It was "Which requires more skill"

Just because something has a 90% win rate doesn't mean it takes little skill.

It's not "Straight up, mathmatically, raiding is twice as hard"
It's "Straight up, mathmatically, raiding has a lower win ratio"
It's a distinct difference.

akabear wrote: »

As the OP, I proposed this discussion to lead on to where then might the monster coin events fit.

Are they pve raid or pvp considering the mob is controlled by a player and as such, where do players see the complexity / difficulty of these "raid" vs other AI raids?

Coin events are still PvP
It's essentially just players playing a different, possibly less complex class.

Though to answer your question, if the coin monster transformation only has one or three abilities, then it's not really a fair fight and it's a numbers/stats game.

Truth is we don't know until we see it in action.

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