Will the (Summoner) Brood Warden be able to off tank end game? Should it?

I've always been drawn to the support-ish roles in MMOs, tanks, healers, buffs, CC etc. Being that summoner is considered a support class, it's the class that I'm drawn to the most as of right now as it's different that anything I have played before. With the information out there so far, it is said that the Summoner can have up to 3 pets out, and in some cases 1 super powerful pet.

It has also been stated that the primary tank archtype will be the end game main tank, but is it possible to have a Brood Warden off tank? With the idea that the secondary tank archtype would have defensive augments for the pets, can or should they be able to off tank with their pet come end game?

I get that the the tank will be the primary, but it seems reasonable that a specific pet tank based pet class should at least be able to do SOME end game tanking limited to off tanking specifically. Am I right? It wouldn't take away from the actual tanks but It would fulfill the need for some players like myself to be useful in end game with a pet class to a niche degree. I think it would go a long way for what options are available for the games content.

If not end game content, would this specific mix of archtypes be able to main tank dungeons? Or will the pet class be forever subjected to just simple experience grinding in mmos? I'm thinking of the pet classes from back in DAOC for example. Always an exp grinder/alt leveler.

What does the community think? I feel like the tanking spec summoner has this concern, as a healing offspec summoner will always be useful since spot healing goes a long way for the mana effiency for the main healers and DPS is always useful.

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Sathrago

Brood warden makes me think of a playstyle where you have a queen scarab beetle or cicada that pumps out thousands of babies that are used as shields and taunts for the summoner kind of like a living armor. If they design it right it could be a cool psuedo support/off tank allowing you to shield others or turn them into temporary tanks, maybe even enhancing full tanks.

Nagash

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Summoners are the best class and I will hear nothing else!

Gonna be hard to receive bard buffs if you can only hear the words "Summoners are the best class"...
Or maybe you don't need any buffs because summoners are so good?

summoners summon summons to buff sommoners who then buff summons

Its quite simple

Yuyukoyay

Dygz wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I've heard steven say in his updates multiple times that summoner isn't going to work the same way as every other archetype. As a summoner you will be able to fully do the role of your second archetype. Since it's a summoner. It will be the only class that can change archetypes and completely change their role to any other role in the game.

Quote or it didn't happen.

You would only need a quote if the information was hard to find. If you watch the videos on the official youtube channel you can find this information eventually though. Said right out of the developers mouths. xD

I like watching them specifically because of things like this that clear up misinformation. There is a difference between a hybrid class and a class that can switch to do 1 role at a time though. It probably won't have the hybrid tax like most other games apply to them because summoners are not a hybrid Archetype.

By logic you can assume they will be able to do their roles as well as the original counter parts. They just won't play anything close to the same due to control differences and the fact that they will be playing to Augments instead of base skills. Since the base skills will be drastically different.

Kalv1441

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I've heard steven say in his updates multiple times that summoner isn't going to work the same way as every other archetype. As a summoner you will be able to fully do the role of your second archetype. Since it's a summoner. It will be the only class that can change archetypes and completely change their role to any other role in the game.

Quote or it didn't happen.

You would only need a quote if the information was hard to find. If you watch the videos on the official youtube channel you can find this information eventually though. Said right out of the developers mouths. xD

I like watching them specifically because of things like this that clear up misinformation. There is a difference between a hybrid class and a class that can switch to do 1 role at a time though. It probably won't have the hybrid tax like most other games apply to them because summoners are not a hybrid Archetype.

By logic you can assume they will be able to do their roles as well as the original counter parts. They just won't play anything close to the same due to control differences and the fact that they will be playing to Augments instead of base skills. Since the base skills will be drastically different.

Now I’m going to have to go find some of the episodes you are talking about! Do you remember any time frame reference off hand? To help narrow it down?

mcstackerson

Summoners have a tank summon. I've only seen one person mention this but the summoner is supposed to be the jack-of-all trades class so it should already be able to tank to some capacity. If they take tank as their secondary, i'd think they could be decent at it.

Nagash

mcstackerson wrote: »

Summoners have a tank summon. I've only seen one person mention this but the summoner is supposed to be the jack-of-all trades class so it should already be able to tank to some capacity. If they take tank as their secondary, i'd think they could be decent at it.

And this is why summoners are great ^^

Dygz

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You would only need a quote if the information was hard to find. If you watch the videos on the official youtube channel you can find this information eventually though. Said right out of the developers mouths. xD

I like watching them specifically because of things like this that clear up misinformation. There is a difference between a hybrid class and a class that can switch to do 1 role at a time though. It probably won't have the hybrid tax like most other games apply to them because summoners are not a hybrid Archetype.

I should be able to find that quote on the wiki and it's not there.
What you interpreted may not be what was actually said.
If you know the quote, it should be easy enough for you to share it.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

By logic you can assume they will be able to do their roles as well as the original counter parts. They just won't play anything close to the same due to control differences and the fact that they will be playing to Augments instead of base skills. Since the base skills will be drastically different.

Actually, that is not the correct logic at all. Jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
Decent at tanking is not the same thing as being main tank.

Saedu

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

I've heard steven say in his updates multiple times that summoner isn't going to work the same way as every other archetype. As a summoner you will be able to fully do the role of your second archetype. Since it's a summoner. It will be the only class that can change archetypes and completely change their role to any other role in the game.

Quote or it didn't happen.

You would only need a quote if the information was hard to find. If you watch the videos on the official youtube channel you can find this information eventually though. Said right out of the developers mouths. xD

I like watching them specifically because of things like this that clear up misinformation. There is a difference between a hybrid class and a class that can switch to do 1 role at a time though. It probably won't have the hybrid tax like most other games apply to them because summoners are not a hybrid Archetype.

By logic you can assume they will be able to do their roles as well as the original counter parts. They just won't play anything close to the same due to control differences and the fact that they will be playing to Augments instead of base skills. Since the base skills will be drastically different.

Hybrid classes that have the hybrid tax tend to not be selected in the highest difficulty content as it's better to just take a class that does their 1 job really well. Hybrids that can do more than one role at a time without a tax are overpowered (until they get nerfed).

Classes that can do more than one role, but only one at a time is the way to go as they provide competitive alternative gameplay styles to fill the role. This is really the best way to build a hybrid.

Yuyukoyay

Dygz wrote: »

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

You would only need a quote if the information was hard to find. If you watch the videos on the official youtube channel you can find this information eventually though. Said right out of the developers mouths. xD

I like watching them specifically because of things like this that clear up misinformation. There is a difference between a hybrid class and a class that can switch to do 1 role at a time though. It probably won't have the hybrid tax like most other games apply to them because summoners are not a hybrid Archetype.

I should be able to find that quote on the wiki and it's not there.
What you interpreted may not be what was actually said.
If you know the quote, it should be easy enough for you to share it.

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

By logic you can assume they will be able to do their roles as well as the original counter parts. They just won't play anything close to the same due to control differences and the fact that they will be playing to Augments instead of base skills. Since the base skills will be drastically different.

Actually, that is not the correct logic at all. Jack-of-all-trades, master of none.
Decent at tanking is not the same thing as being main tank.

They aren't a jack of all trades class. That eludes to them being a hybrid archetype which they aren't. The specific series where it was said was in the developer updates. It's not currently known what their abilities are on the base class, but augments will change their abilities more than any other class in the game.

The concept is unique and hasn't really been done before in an MMO. So I can't compare it to existing summoner classes in other MMOs.

They aren't going to play like a class who can do multiple things at once. They might be able to summon different role summons at the same time, but the secondary class will most likely dictate what class those summons are. How each class accomplishes this may differ greatly depending on the summoners secondary Archetypes. I'd imagine there will be classes who either swarm you with weak summons and classes who have summons equivalent to another adventurer in power.

This seems like the most misunderstood class right now. It might be due to the fact it's not in a presentable state yet though.

It's not important enough for me to care whether no one believes me or not. However, I'm going to laugh at everyone who doesn't when it turns out I'm right when they reveal all of the information on the class. xD

Kalv1441

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

It's not important enough for me to care whether no one believes me or not. However, I'm going to laugh at everyone who doesn't when it turns out I'm right when they reveal all of the information on the class. xD

Heck yeah. Well said. I feel the same way 😎👊

Dygz

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

They aren't a jack of all trades class. That eludes to them being a hybrid archetype which they aren't. The specific series where it was said was in the developer updates. It's not currently known what their abilities are on the base class, but augments will change their abilities more than any other class in the game.

The concept is unique and hasn't really been done before in an MMO. So I can't compare it to existing summoner classes in other MMOs.

They aren't going to play like a class who can do multiple things at once. They might be able to summon different role summons at the same time, but the secondary class will most likely dictate what class those summons are. How each class accomplishes this may differ greatly depending on the summoners secondary Archetypes. I'd imagine there will be classes who either swarm you with weak summons and classes who have summons equivalent to another adventurer in power.

This seems like the most misunderstood class right now. It might be due to the fact it's not in a presentable state yet though.

It's not important enough for me to care whether no one believes me or not. However, I'm going to laugh at everyone who doesn't when it turns out I'm right when they reveal all of the information on the class. xD

You don't have to care whether or not you're believed. You are either right or wrong, regardless of whether anyone believes you. I'm just not convinced you are correct until you provide the quote.

"The way that Summoning works is, players have active abilities as a Summoner to Summon a particular type of Summon. And those types of Summons that you can Summon will be adherent to the trinity class system, so you will have a more tank oriented type Summon available to you, as well as a more support oriented type Summon and a dps type Summon. So, you kind of want to choose which one you're going to use at any given encounter based on the necessity of the encounter."
---Steven

https://youtu.be/KtVUiS7yAHE?t=6190

Being able to call forth Summons adherent to the trinity class system is jack-of-all trades. It is also indicative of a hybrid class. Hybrid: something that is of mixed origin or composition.
What you mean by hybrid, I don't know.

I'm pretty sure you are correct that they aren't going to play like a class that can do multiple things at once, as far as, Summoners will have to choose which trinity type is going to be Summoned. Steven says "which one" rather than indicating multiple types could be Summoned at the same type, therefore, it is unlikely that Summoners will be able to Summon different role Summons at the same time.
There will be some classes that Summon a swarm and some classes that will be limited to one powerful Summon.

I am not aware of Steven suggesting that a Summon can be as powerful as player character (Adventurer), indeed, "as powerful as a Tank, Cleric or Mage player character" requires a dev quote to be believed.
So far, that seems to be just an exaggeration you are adding on your own.

I think the Bard is the most misunderstood archetype so far. We have the least information about that archetype, I think. Summoner is a good runner up for least info. Sure.

I also would need a recent dev quote for "It's not currently known what their abilities are on the base class, but augments will change their abilities more than any other class in the game."
Again, I think you are exaggerating what has actually been said about Summoner augments.
What we know as of July 2020:
"If you were to choose Mage as your secondary archetype, to create your class, you would have access to Mage augments. There's going to be 4 schools of augmentations for each archetype."
---Steven

https://youtu.be/8AeuqaELjFg?t=3969

To bring that back around to the OP...
A Summoner with a tank Summons should be able to off-tank. A Brood Warden should be able to off-tank even better.
But, a Brood Warden should not be able to tank as well as even a Keeper. And definitely not as well as a Guardian.

Kalv1441

Dygz wrote: »

To bring that back around to the OP...
A Summoner with a tank Summons should be able to off-tank. A Brood Warden should be able to off-tank even better.
But, a Brood Warden should not be able to tank as well as even a Keeper. And definitely not as well as a Guardian.

Definitely. A summoner should not outperform a primary role in end game content but should be able to do a lot of content as a viable alternative to the primary roles in different situations.

Noaani

My main question to the OP would be this;

Why would anyone want to raid in a guild that is using a summoner as an off tank in top end content?

If my guild is not able to use the proper class for the task, then we aren't attempting that task. I am not going to waste 40 peoples time trying to do something with sub-optimal classes, and I wouldn't waste my time with a guild that would think this is an ok thing to do.

Yuyukoyay

Noaani wrote: »

My main question to the OP would be this;

Why would anyone want to raid in a guild that is using a summoner as an off tank in top end content?

If my guild is not able to use the proper class for the task, then we aren't attempting that task. I am not going to waste 40 peoples time trying to do something with sub-optimal classes, and I wouldn't waste my time with a guild that would think this is an ok thing to do.

This reasoning is why the Summoner is definitely not going to be a hybrid class. It is more probable that they will actually have multiple build possibilities for every role. It's more likely that they can be the primary tank at the cost of damage in their build. Than that they won't be able to Primary tank at all.

We'll see when we see the class played in beta.

Noaani

Yuyukoyay wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

My main question to the OP would be this;

Why would anyone want to raid in a guild that is using a summoner as an off tank in top end content?

If my guild is not able to use the proper class for the task, then we aren't attempting that task. I am not going to waste 40 peoples time trying to do something with sub-optimal classes, and I wouldn't waste my time with a guild that would think this is an ok thing to do.

This reasoning is why the Summoner is definitely not going to be a hybrid class. It is more probable that they will actually have multiple build possibilities for every role. It's more likely that they can be the primary tank at the cost of damage in their build. Than that they won't be able to Primary tank at all.

We'll see when we see the class played in beta.

I can absolutely see summoners being able to be tanks, healers or DPS in group content, and DPS with regards to raid content.

I would actually be somewhat surprised if this didn't end up being the case.

Raids are different though. You waste 90 seconds on a raid in Ashes and that is actually a waste of a full hour when you take in to consideration the 40 people present. A 3 hour raid night is actually 120 hours - or the equivlent of one person working a full time job for three weeks. Running a raid is a responsibility - of peoples time more than anything - and needs to be managed well in order to not waste what really is a fairly large amount of time.

This is why if a given class is 5% better at a task, you take that class over any other. The time lost is always multiplied by 40 in Ashes, so you don't want to lose any time.

Anything less is irresponsible.

Songcaller

5% differential? I think it wouldn't matter at that point. The tank is still a viable tank at such a small margin. If you want to min/max then 5% would matter but without a parser how will you work out the 5% differential? There are only two rules, you can either tank or you can't tank. If the summoner can tank then the summoner can tank, if the summoner can't tank then the summoner won't be a tank. To be an effective tank you need threat management, damage management and awareness management. You don't need parser level of difference.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

5% differential? I think it wouldn't matter at that point. The tank is still a viable tank at such a small margin. If you want to min/max then 5% would matter but without a parser how will you work out the 5% differential? There are only two rules, you can either tank or you can't tank. If the summoner can tank then the summoner can tank, if the summoner can't tank then the summoner won't be a tank. To be an effective tank you need threat management, damage management and awareness management. You don't need parser level of difference.

Ignoring the fact that 5% in terms of a raids tank is actually very significant, if that 5% causes even a 90 second delay, when taking all 40 people in to account that is a 1 hour delay.

5% (which is a random number I threw in to illustrate how small of a difference should be taken in to account by a responsibly managed guild) would cause more than 90 seconds worth of delays on most raid evenings - if we are talking about a tank. On some content, that sub-par tank (even if only by 5%) could well waste 90 minutes of the raids time. This means it is now wasting 60 hours worth of combined player time, and that is outright unacceptable in my mind - considering it is such a simple thing to bring the optimal class.

Any raid that compromises on a tank is going to waste time for everyone present, and this is irresponsible as far as I am concerned.

You don't need a combat tracker to see this.

Songcaller

There won't be a 5 percent differential because you would build tanks to tank. You would wear appropriate armour, you would use appropriate skills and you would use appropriate tactics.

You would build the raid to function around the tank. It's been said before summoner can fit support role or dps role. Not sure how accurate the info is because summoner remains an enigma.

The summoner might have summon armour ability like sorc in ESO or have a tank summon like Dark Templar in Age of Conan. I've used a range of classes to tank and have never been asked if I can do anything except tank.

I don't get where you claim the 5% drop is? The tank class has threat on all abilities last I saw so dps is not a high priority for tanks. You could build an evasion tank build and add summoner on top and I believe the class would be a beast of a tank.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I don't get where you claim the 5% drop is?

I didn't claim this.

I said that if a class is 5% better at tanking than other classes, top end guilds will use that better class.

Zeshio

Just theorycrafting, but could be good for off-tanking or tanking multiple weaker mobs in smaller groups. Say if you don't have another tank style class, could help to have an extra body or two to take blows. As long as the summons have the HP to take it.

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