If there were a training room to measure DPS/HPS would you use it?

There will be no meters or meter addons obviously, but if there were a place you could measure and practice the numbers you could pull (like a training room) would you use it?

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rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

PotatoMasherAnnie wrote: »

I am unsurprised so many people tie knowing DPS numbers to toxicity - I have seen that happen, of course. But I personally would love a training dummy. Not so I can compare myself to others or anything like that. Part of what I love about PvE combat is perfecting how I play and I would find a training room really useful to that end.

I don't know why you're surprised that so many people tie DPS meters to toxicity.
If it weren't a significant population, Steven would not have the view he has...and the experienced devs would not agree with him.

I might use a training dummy - I might even use training dummies to coordinate and strategize with my day-to-day groupmates. DPS numbers would not be what we're looking at to form tactics and strategies.

(My experience with DPS meter toxicity is from NWO)

The only reason Steven has his opinion is because he probably got his ass handed to him, making him realize that he is a bad player. He didn't like the facts so he is trying to hide it

Why do I assume this? Look at the pvp clip of him and some devs. He is clicking his spells and his movements are soooo slow xD

He thought he was good, he then got the facts, couldn't handle the facts, got mad and toxic, blamed the dps meters.

And they do not agree with him, that is why they are adding the combat log.

Dygz

Lord Mathis wrote: »

I agree that dps meters can be "toxic" at some times. I think the real issue is not with the dps meter but with the try hards on the internet not allowing people into raids or not being willing to training low dps players. Makes it rough for people like myself that are new to MMOs.

I like the RP of training dummies a lot if DPS meters aren't going to be a thing. I like the idea of using training dummies as they were intended. In wow I never touched a dummy because I knew what dps I was dropping in raid from the raid logging website and I could just practice my rotation out in the world with enemies that were more interesting. If there are no meters I think I would really get into having training dummies.

It's a factor of the DPS meters. Because gamers care more about being uber efficient than they do about RP.
So, they are going to focus more on the numbers than player choice in crafting a character when it comes to abilities.
And, once devs implement DPS meters as a feature, they begin to design encounters around the expectation of DPS meters being used.

There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
"You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."

neuroguy

Depending on how easy it is to respec I would play around with different builds. Otherwise I wouldn't really try to min/max dps unless I found myself really under performing or being out performed by another player of the same class.

Littlekenny21

I like the idea of a training dummy or training room which shows numbers like DPS. This idea doesn't even relate to the argument of DPS meters and toxicity.

People who say other people don't want DPS meters because they are bad or because they can't handle the facts kind of support the argument of DPS meters being linked to toxicity.

Group finder and lack of player reputation is a big reason for toxic behaviour and kicking. If a player is perceived to be performing poorly, then there is no real consequence for kicking since they can be easily replaced with no effort and it won't go against you since nobody would know who you are. This still happens without DPS meters.

Another big issue is that encounters and classes are designed in such a way where the DPS value matters a lot. There are still other important values but they don't hold the significance of DPS.

A potential issue with this game is if groups decide to kick players because they could be easily replaced using a family summon.

JamesSunderland

Yep definitely, and if a training room or training dummy won't be a thing, i will simple measure my dps and best rotations through other methods.

rikardp98

Dygz wrote: »

Lord Mathis wrote: »

I agree that dps meters can be "toxic" at some times. I think the real issue is not with the dps meter but with the try hards on the internet not allowing people into raids or not being willing to training low dps players. Makes it rough for people like myself that are new to MMOs.

I like the RP of training dummies a lot if DPS meters aren't going to be a thing. I like the idea of using training dummies as they were intended. In wow I never touched a dummy because I knew what dps I was dropping in raid from the raid logging website and I could just practice my rotation out in the world with enemies that were more interesting. If there are no meters I think I would really get into having training dummies.

It's a factor of the DPS meters. Because gamers care more about being uber efficient than they do about RP.
So, they are going to focus more on the numbers than player choice in crafting a character when it comes to abilities.
And, once devs implement DPS meters as a feature, they begin to design encounters around the expectation of DPS meters being used.

There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
"You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."

haha what is wrong with "You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."?

AND, some people care about being "uber efficient", and some care about RP. No play style is better than the other. Play with people you want to play with and do not discriminate people because the do not like the way you play the game.

Dygz

That will be much easier to do in a game that does not support DPS meters.
Exactly.

Bardtic

Along with what others have said about how knowing exact numbers for everything turns the game into a min/max where devs have to create and balance around that, I think having a training room would also become a form of gatekeeping while people ask you to send a screenshot of your DPS in the training room.

Songcaller

No I wouldn't use it. The only time I've used Combat Dummies was in Black Desert Online to gain skill points over night. I don't have time to bash a Combat Dummy and play the game. There is enough education in active combat for me to digest without the need for a test room. I took the skill point option because it enhanced the speed at which I gained skill points with Active Combat and Passive Combat during downtime.

Inixia

I'm surprised how many people seem to be conflating having a simple training dummy with their arguments for raid dps parsing. Those two are... not very similar at all haha they have very different roles.

A training dummy is just there to see what works in a convenient way without having to go out and try the same thing against monsters, it isn't going to cause 'every guild to be elitist', kill socialization or to only care about min maxing. The person on the training dummy is usually just some average kid trying his best to figure out new spec. There are some really wild fears being created around here over something pretty small.

edit: like whatever you think (like or don't like) about raid parsing, a training dummy really shouldn't be wrenched into that conversation.

Bardtic

Inixia wrote: »

I'm surprised how many people seem to be conflating having a simple training dummy with their arguments for raid dps parsing. Those two are... not very similar at all haha they have very different roles.

A training dummy is just there to see what works in a convenient way without having to go out and try the same thing against monsters, it isn't going to cause 'every guild to be elitist', kill socialization or to only care about min maxing. The person on the training dummy is usually just some average kid trying his best to test a new spec. There are some really wild fears being created around here over something pretty small.

I think the issue is if there is a DPS meter associated with the Combat Dummy when there isnt one in the rest of the game.

Inixia

Bardtic wrote: »

I think the issue is if there is a DPS meter associated with the Combat Dummy when there isnt one in the rest of the game.

sure but it should be a non-issue. unless people are arguing that *any* combat information will ruin the game via some sort of weird slippery slope?? There's a big difference between using a training dummy in conjunction with your combat log or in-game tool to test new specs in a safe controlled way away from monsters, and using dps parsers mid-raid to set goals for yourself on a attempt by attempt basis and actively call out mechanics for your team. Its like... night and day.

Noaani

ViBunja wrote: »

But most people come from WoW. So you bet that's going to happen, DPS meters also helped in the destruction of socializing, and just created the meta of kicking the person who can't DPS instead of talking and improving with their party/raid.

Actually, what created that was the fact that if you kicked someone from a group or raid, you could replace that player in an instant, and were likely to never see that player again.

Basically, what caused that behavior, what caused the toxicity in WoW, was the LFG/LFR system.

You take away a group leaders ability to replace a person, you make it so that they know they will have to see that person again, and all of a sudden you make it so that group leader doesn't really have the option of booting that player, even if they are under-performing.

If a game is going to treat players as replaceable parts, players can't be surprised when other players treat them as such as well.

PotatoMasherAnnie

Lord Mathis wrote: »

Just a side note it might be cool if guild halls could have their own training room. Possibly make it more advanced then just dummies like dummies on tracks that move around to simulate basic boss level mechanics. Guilds could meet up at the halls with noobies and take them through the ropes showing of mechanics and helping them practice their rotation. That and a designated guild sparing area would be awesome additions

I would play the heck out of that!

PotatoMasherAnnie

Dygz wrote: »

There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
"You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."

Very good point! I never even thought about people using the knowledge to reroll their class, but especially in a game like AOC where there are so many combinations between the primary and secondary archetype it would definitely happen. It will be impossible to balance all 64 combinations so there would likely be some classes people wouldn't play. You only have to look as far as mythic raiding in WoW to know how boring that gets, when people stack a specific class because it does 3% more damage than the others.

Marcet

Yes a training room with dummies and all that, I like it.

Dygz

Inixia wrote: »

I'm surprised how many people seem to be conflating having a simple training dummy with their arguments for raid dps parsing. Those two are... not very similar at all haha they have very different roles.

I felt that was more of a tangent than a conflation.

Gubiak

Absolutely yes. Getting better at dealing damage gives me a sense of accomplishment. It allows me to help my friends and dunk on my enemies if I am good at the game.

Dygz

PotatoMasherAnnie wrote: »

Very good point! I never even thought about people using the knowledge to reroll their class, but especially in a game like AOC where there are so many combinations between the primary and secondary archetype it would definitely happen. It will be impossible to balance all 64 combinations so there would likely be some classes people wouldn't play. You only have to look as far as mythic raiding in WoW to know how boring that gets, when people stack a specific class because it does 3% more damage than the others.

In Ashes, whatever balance will really be with the Primary Archetypes, rather than all 64 classes.
And, even then, it's rock, paper, scissors. Group balance rather than individual/solo balance.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

There are people who have said that if Tank/Tank gives the highest DPS, that's what raiders will demand - even though the design is for any of the 8 classes to be viable main tanks for endgame content.
Because the goal is not simply to defeat the encounter(s), but to do so with maximum efficiency as dictated by the numbers.
"You think you're good, but I can show you by the numbers that you aren't as good as you think you are."

Despite over a year of discussion on this topic, this right here just continues to display your total lack of understanding of what combat trackers are used for.

If one guild wants to show off to another, the only thing that is valid to do so are mobs that have been killed, and the time it takes to kill those mobs. Other data is used as a means to that end, not as a means to show off in and of itself.

The fact that you STILL don't understand this is a testiment to how little attention you are paying to the discussion on these forums in regards to objective data in general, despite your insistance on spreading your uninformed opinion all over the place like some sort of airbourn pollutant.

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