Not really feeling the whole front flip Dwarfs...

I understand Intrepid is taking its own direction on races and lore for Ashes...Perhaps not trying to fall into fantasy tropes or intellectual property thresholds.

But logically speaking I don't feel a mountain carving and tunneling race (Dünir) would jump flip... "Stoic and stout" seems more rotund, staunch and stocky... a 'regular' jump with perhaps a dodge roll seems a better fit.

(Verbal NDA lifted personal experience alpha tester, So actual hands on impression of the race as it currently being offered)

The islander dwarfs/halflings (Niküa) might seem fine with such athleticism.

I hope Intreprid might already have such details in the pipeline but just not implemented yet.

If not I hope they might reconsider the Jump Flip for mountain dorfs...

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Asgerr

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I am disappointed with the current state of dwarfs too. I voiced this in the other thread, and I feel the need to say it again here.

If they did not want this race to be like the dwarfs people have come to love and expect from other more popular high fantasy media. They should have avoided the word dwarf all together. I would have been happy with just Dünzenkell, Dünir, or Niküa. I have zero expectations of any of those races based on their names. When you specifically call them dwarfs as well. For me that adds some expectations I have dwarfs from other popular high fantasy franchises.

If Ashes was not specifically calling itself "High Fantasy", and was instead calling itself "Fairy Tale Fantasy". The seven dwarfs style dwarfs would also make sense. I am not saying that Intrepid should not have full creative control or freedom in their project. I am saying that it makes sense that people would be disappointed when they hear a game is going to have dwarfs, then they see the dwarfs in the game.

Players Kid: Can we have dwarves?
Intrepid Mom: We have dwarves at home. in Verra.

This is the one image of a dwarf I found on the kickstarter:

Seems pretty good to me. I am very skeptical that guy do a front flip though.

Again, none of this is a deal breaker for me, but I would be lying if I said that the current dwarfs were not a disappointment.

Absolutely agree, and also @Vhaeyne just noticed the updated signature with Ultros on it. A hearty Lali-ho to that

Vhaeyne

daveywavey wrote: »

Dwarves were around before Tolkien, and originally weren't even described as the short, stocky beings we "know" them as today. So, if someone can change them to fit their own lore, why can't Intrepid change them to fit into Ashes lore?

I tried to choose my words very carefully in my post. I specified "Popular High Fantasy". Maybe I should have said "Current Generation Popular High Fantasy". The whole point of my post was to point out that the word Dwarf in a "Popular High Fantasy" context has a expected image. Which comes with disappointment if the expectations of "Dwarf" is not met. Which is why this thread and many like it keep popping up.

Intrepid made a choice to use the word Dwarf and go against the popular interpretation of Dwarfs.
People are disappointed. That is real. Saying that Ashes is different or its own thing is not going to change that.

daveywavey

Asgerr wrote: »

and also @Vhaeyne just noticed the updated signature with Ultros on it. A hearty Lali-ho to that

But, where's Sisko, huh? HUH? It's like you don't even care any more, Vhaeyne.

I don't know who you are any more....

Uncommon Sense

Shergrim wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Dwarves were around before Tolkien, and originally weren't even described as the short, stocky beings we "know" them as today. So, if someone can change them to fit their own lore, why can't Intrepid change them to fit into Ashes lore?

"Stoic. Tradition. Forge. Most of the peoples from the old world would see a mountain and think nothing of it. The Dünir saw a defensible home where riches abound. The Dünir take immense pride in what they craft and what they build: fortifications that seem impregnable, warhammers that never break, or beautiful gems for their royalty are all in their repertoire. Don't be deceived by their stout stature. They're pound for pound the strongest warriors the world has ever known."

if intrepid are trying to make them fit their own lore they should at least not make them sound exactly like traditional tolkien or warhammer dwarves no? with a description like that i expect something more from the models than what we currently have ingame! "pound for pound the best warriors the world has ever known?!" that is a joke. when i read that line i think of a gotrek gurnisson not any of snow whites 7 bloody dwarves!

Exactly.I was using Intrepid's very own lore as a basis for my opinion .The only reason i refereed to Tolkien is 1. i was responding to a comment and 2. Tolkien basically invented dwarves as we all imagine them to be.

Vhaeyne

daveywavey wrote: »

where's Sisko

I don't want to spoil that...

ViBunja

There is an important factor to remember when it comes to video games. Do not try to reinvent the wheel.

MOSvisio

Maybe the game is so huge that they do ctrl-c ctrl-v animation for every class, I'd rather they work on everything else now and polish the game later.

Dreoh

What if they're just Dwemer with genetic dwarfism?

Dwarf Dwarves

Uncommon Sense

Of coarse its all alpha state speculation, However the character creation screen selection was Dunir aka mountain dwarfs. So the template is being set. The front jump flip is a very specific and rather smooth animation to be just a test this here situation...it appears to be specific to and only to dwarfs...

As I originally criticized I have no issue with this animation in conjunction with the Polynesian surfer gnomes (Nikua)..so not a wasted asset.

But for me Intrepid lore wise Mountain Dwarfs (Dunir) are not acrobats. Would rather see something like a both arms swing jump animation and perhaps a dodge roll as compromise...

These are merely suggestions. I hope intrepid sees and considers if not already acknowledged and in the development pipeline beyond alpha testing parameters.

Dygz

The important factor to remember is that this is Alpha.
For all we know, the flip is something they are testing for Niküa and Dünir will not have the flip at launch.
Or the flip will be removed later.

Everyone should already know that Ashes of Creation stems from Steven's homebrew Pathfinder game.
It does not come from his Middle-Earth GMing. It does not come from his Warhammer GMing.
Ashes of Creation does not transpire on Golarion, the primary world of the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting.
Rather, Ashes of Creation is lore that Steven created using the Pathfinder ruleset.
Steven is not trying to emulate Middle-Earth Dwarves. Steven is not trying to emulate Warhammer Dwarves.
He has taken Patherfinder rules for Dwarves and modified them to fit his vision and his lore for Verra and Sanctus. And he is now translating that into an MMORPG - with a dev team mostly comprised of former SOE/Daybreak devs...many of whom worked on EQ and EQ2.
Steven has never said that the races of Verra will reflect "Current Generation Popular High Fantasy". That has never been stated as a design goal. If that is your expectation, expect to be disappointed.
EQ and EQ2 are popular High Fantasy MMORPGs. You should expect that former EQ devs are going to design Ashes Dwarves to appear similar to EQ Dwarves. If that's a dealbreaker for you, you should probably play a different game.
I dunno why you would follow a game being created by former EQ devs if the appearance of EQ Dwarves are a dealbreaker for you.

Middle-Earth has seven clans of Dwarves. They do not all have exactly the same traits. They don't all have the exact same physical builds. They don't all have the exact same cultural traits or personality traits.
There are many subtypes of Dwarves, not only in Middle Earth, but also in D&D and Pathfinder.
Anyone who plays RPGs should know that the Dwarves of a homebrew setting may differ significantly in many ways from Middle-Earth Dwarves or Faerun Dwarves or Golarion Dwarves or Greyhawk Dwarves.
We don't know how Dünir Dwarves differ from Dünzenkell Dwarves.
For all we know, Dünir Dwarves and Niküa Dwarves evolved on Sanctus in a manner that allows them to flip on Verra and most of them love the new experience.
Nothing in the description of Dünir Dwarves indicates that they can't perform a flip.

Seeming similar in many ways to Dwarves from other settings does not mean they are exactly the same as Dwarves from other settings.
But, again, it's Alpha. It's easy enough to ask the devs what their intention is with the flip.

Uncommon Sense

Well I just looked at pathfinder and EQ2 dwarfs and they all seem cookie cutter mine shaft beardy boys to me.
I am basing this opinion on intrepids own Dunir Lore aka Stevens Lore. Stoic and Stout...does not pertain to nimble and acrobatic.

Dygz

Stout does not preclude being nimble and acrobatic.
Stoic has no bearing on being nimble and acrobatic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u5KRfLosc

Asgerr

You mean these pathfinder dwarves?

png-clipart-pathfinder-roleplaying-game-dungeons-dragons-dwarf-warrior-fighter-dwarf-cartoon-d20-system.png

kisspng-dungeons-dragons-pathfinder-roleplaying-game-dwa-dwarf-5ac7d347638676.0128240415230451914077.jpg

81034-roleplaying-pathfinder-dwarf-dungeons-dragons-mercenary-game.png

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2u5KRfLosc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i021EtSXSGM

Uncommon Sense

What is it with people linking semi naked people flipping once. 25 fat guys flipping...Wheres the epic beard and full plate armor carrying a battle axe flipping 1000x times video clips...

Just because its a fantasy setting doesn't mean the lore and mechanics shouldn't adhere to some resemblance of reality to cement immersion.

I already acknowledged where i feel the flipping is fine the Nikua can flip in every direction if the lore values make it seem appropriate (which it could).

But don't try to play this off as breaking the mold in design...Testing purposes fine.

But my feedback is the front flip jump animation on the Dunir is unappropriated and off putting.

Dygz

You wrote: "Stoic and Stout...does not pertain to nimble and acrobatic."
And I demonstrated that people can be nimble, acrobatic and stout.
Not all Dwarves are stout and wear plate armor.

Shergrim

why would a dwarf even do a flip in the first place? what even is the purpose? sure as hell isn't an advantage in combat even for elves who are renowned for their agility..it's all just nonesense.

IF a dwarf could even do a flip in the first place or would even want to..they'd most likely view them as some wazzock elf trick and not bother.

imagine seeing a dwarf training gymnastics to be able to do a flip.. honestly what in grungni's name is this dude smoking.

Uncommon Sense

So Dygz, now you are using tolkienisms...What's it going to be?

Well all of Steven Dunir are stout and stoic shaped by the mountains and stone...Intrepids words not mine.

Suggesting that once they leave the mines of the mountains of generational environmental adaption and evolution that's they'll be like "hey i can flip now...so I'm going to every time I jump" Is a dumb lore premise.

As Shergim suggested, Even if they could why would would they? Surely they are to proud and firm for such things.

McMackMuck

Steven invited the community to engage in discussions during the development.
Anything people decide to pass comment on is valid feedback, including the stockiness of Dwarves or their impractical immersion breaking ability to flip wearing heavy armor.
Steven will decide what to do with that feedback, not us.
Ultimately we will get what Steven wants to give us, but we at least have the opportunity to point out our preferences and hope that he agrees.

Naxxaz

It's fine to break the traditional format, but there is such a thing as too much deviation.
To the point where you break the foundation which made the fantasy work in the first place.

Dunir should keep mostly in touch with traditional tolkien dwarves and let the Nikua be the outlier.

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