Compromise for DPS Meters: Tooltip Numbers

Dygz wrote: »

Most of the PvP combat in Ashes is intended to be objective-based, so...
It doesn't doesn't really matter who the best players are, solely based on damage.

Are you suggesting that the best players on the best characters won't be the ones that come out on top?

I'm curious as to what your reasoning for this is.

Dygz wrote: »

Most of the PvP combat in Ashes is intended to be objective-based, so...
It doesn't doesn't really matter who the best players are, solely based on damage.

Players outputting the most damage will win those objectives , so it does matter. Optimizing your character stats and being skillful in using that damage will beat any unprepared player.

Zeshio

akabear wrote: »

@Noaani with the sheer number of posts & volume of text contributed with each post, it appears you are heavily time invested in AoC. Yet it appears from your tag you are not financially invested with only a nominal tier backer purchase..

Forgive my suggestion, but with the passion your replies and the wealth of topics you cover, perhaps that investment might be worth your while to upgrade your position and provide critique from actual first hand in-game experience than just the second hand forum information.

And perhaps your experience might be valuable as feedback from the real issues that are far more apparent than these entertaining paper discussions.

I don't think it's your place to dictate how people should spend their time in the community.

https://youtu.be/v4WSKBf8KPc?t=3679

Objective-based PvP combat isn't necessarily about those who build and play the "stronger" character.
Especially the way Ashes is designed with rock-paper-scissors to have groups working together.
RPGs are intended to be more about the team work - the group maximizing whatever individual strengths to create group strength while shoring up each other's weaknesses.
In Ashes, a Rogue having strong Stealth may be more important than having high DPS.

You don't need a tool to tell you the numbers for your damage to get a feel for how powerful you are.
My Tank duo partner and I were quickly taking down mobs more than twice our level.
We didn't need to see damage numbers to figure out the sweet spot of quick kills vs mobs that felt too high for us. It's easy enough to devise tactics and strategies from observation and a bit of experimentation.
It's not just about reducing toxicity. It's also about Steven's philosophy regarding how to observe and communicate with each other while figuring out how to defeat the encounter.

Dygz wrote: »

Objective-based PvP combat isn't necessarily about those who build and play the "stronger" character.

Yes it is.

In objective based PvP, you have other people trying to kill you. If you want to succeed at your objective, you first need to kill them.

While it may be all well and good that you can work out what level of content you and you friend are able to kill at low levels in alpha, when you start coming up against other people - people that will put time and effort and thought in to being as good as they can - the only way to beat them is to also put that time and effort and thought in to being as good as you can.

A combat tracker is an essential tool in this. If you are not using one and I am (which you know I will), you honestly don't stand a chance.

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Players outputting the most damage will win those objectives , so it does matter. Optimizing your character stats and being skillful in using that damage will beat any unprepared player.

Optimizing your character stats and being skillful doesn't necessarily require a tool to help you determine that.
You can figure that out based on how you allot points to your a skill trees and how you stack your augments - in addition to how you synergize your abilities with the abilities of your allies.
If you're focus on combat rather than the objectives.

When I did PvP back in NWO, I topped the leaderboards for captures by ignoring combat and letting opponents kill me. Because captures were worth twice the points as kills.
So, no, who does the most damage does not necessarily determine who will win the objectives.

Dygz wrote: »

Objective-based PvP combat isn't necessarily about those who build and play the "stronger" character.
Especially the way Ashes is designed with rock-paper-scissors to have groups working together.
RPGs are intended to be more about the team work - the group maximizing whatever individual strengths to create group strength while shoring up each other's weaknesses.

Pvp and leveling with a friend are very different things , players will be very cutthroat in squeezing any advantage they have in pvp fights and the stakes will matter a lot in this game. Damage will always matter in a pvp fights , healers cant heal if they are taking a dirt nap because they got blasted and are unable to out heal the damage , tanks are useless if they cant absorb the incoming damage they are taking and someone hitting like a wet noodle not going to be much help.

Maezriel

Dygz wrote: »

Objective-based PvP combat isn't necessarily about those who build and play the "stronger" character.
Especially the way Ashes is designed with rock-paper-scissors to have groups working together.
RPGs are intended to be more about the team work - the group maximizing whatever individual strengths to create group strength while shoring up each other's weaknesses.
In Ashes, a Rogue having strong Stealth may be more important than having high DPS.

That would be true if it many of the victory conditions to different aspects of the game didn't literally come down to who did the most DPS

World boss loot? Most DPS
Mob tagging? Most DPS
Castles? Most DPS
Best gear from instanced dungeons? Most DPS

Like...It's not even by a little bit, a lot of this game depends on being able to crank out high numbers and the only reasons people have for not wanting them is some sense of magic and wonder or to slow toxicity and frankly I don't see either of those downsides outweighing the benefits of at least knowing the numbers on my tooltips.

Yep. And while cuthroat people focus on maximum damage, other people will be sneaking past all that to reach the objectives.
It's objective-based PvP - not mere group-v-group direct combat PvP.
Damage does not always matter in PvP fights that are objective-based. Which is why Ashes of Creation focuses on objective-based PvP.

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. And while cuthroat people focus on maximum damage, other people will be sneaking past all that to reach the objectives.

I don't think yo uget it.
We focus on DPS before combat, and get it perfected.

That way, when we are in a siege, we can put more of our focus on things like watching out for people trying to stealth past, and when we find you, we are automatically better at DPS because we put the effort in.

A combat tracker is about preparedness, not about staring at a thing in combat. We don't even need to be using it during PvP to get 95% of the benefit from it.

Dygz wrote: »

It's objective-based PvP - not mere group-v-group direct combat PvP.
Damage does not always matter in PvP fights that are objective-based. Which is why Ashes of Creation focuses on objective-based PvP.

While this is true, if I am sieging your node and I kill the people sent off to try and stop my small group meeting it's objective, then we are going to have a much easier time of meeting said objective.

If you are trying to siege my node and I am sent to prevent you from meeting your objective, you had better believe that you won't even reach it.

Dygz wrote: »

Yep. And while cuthroat people focus on maximum damage, other people will be sneaking past all that to reach the objectives.
It's objective-based PvP - not mere group-v-group direct combat PvP.
Damage does not always matter in PvP fights that are objective-based. Which is why Ashes of Creation focuses on objective-based PvP.

Sneaking not going to help much with caravans and sieges where you need to control the area and kill the opposition.

Sneaking will definitely help with sieges. You don't have to kill the opposition in a siege - you just have to capture the relic(s).
We will have to see whether or not Sneaking helps with Caravans.

Dygz wrote: »

Sneaking will definitely help with sieges. You don't have to kill the opposition in a siege - you just have to capture the relic(s).
We will have to see whether or not it helps with Caravans.

Sneaking doesn't really matter much if you cant win the fight , and in order to win the fight you need output as much damage as you , it will always matter in pvp and combat in Ashes is no different the any other mmorpg where that is concern.

Dygz wrote: »

Sneaking will definitely help with sieges. You don't have to kill the opposition in a siege - you just have to capture the relic(s).
We will have to see whether or not Sneaking helps with Caravans.

Sneaking isn't going to help you if the opposition has someone stationed right at said relic. It is very, VERY unlikely that they will allow you to pick it up while stealthed. You will need to be in control of the general area around any objective in order to meet it.

Uh. Winning a siege is all about who captures the relic - not who does the most damage.
So Sneaking can matter even if you don't do the most damage.

Dygz wrote: »

Uh. Winning a siege is all about who captures the relic - not who does the most damage.
So Sneaking can matter even if you don't do the most damage.

You have to kill the defenders guarding the relic in order to take it. That fight will most likely need the most damage output for success as it will be a last stand situation for the defending side.

Vhaeyne

Dygz wrote: »

Uh. Winning a siege is all about who captures the relic - not who does the most damage.
So Sneaking can matter even if you don't do the most damage.

Try sneaking up on a bunch of clerics maintaining hallowed ground around a relic.

You don't have to kill them. You may have to survive them - if they are there.
The character with the high Sneak does not have to be the one to kill them.
And, the defenders don't have to be killed - distracting them long enough can also work.
High CC could work for that instead of high damage.
And, again, all of that is really about points allotted to the skill trees.

Only Dygz would argue that PvP is not about PvP.

Dygz wrote: »

High CC could work for that instead of high damage.
And, again, all of that is really about points allotted to the skill trees.

The thing with a combat tracker, it can also help you work out what the best way to spec for CC and anti CC is.

So, if your argument is now down to CC'ing people so you can stealth through (why did you even need to stealth when you have to bring CC classes along?), then the side that will come out on top is likely to be the side that best understands the games CC aspects - which will be the side that uses a combat tracker to understand them.