Tanking

I love the overall archetype class design that they're going for, and I know they have said that a tank archetype will be able to tank no matter what secondary class he chooses.
But does anyone know if any other classes if they choose a tank secondary will be able to tank?
For example a rogue/tank being able to do a Dodge evasion type build for tanking. Or a summoner focusing on tanky summons?

Or will the tank primary be the only tanking option?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

SirChancelot

Dygz wrote: »

I wonder what you think Secondary Archetype means other than secondary?
Secondaries cannot fulfill primary roles because the don't have primary abilities - they have primary augments and augments are not as powerful as abilities.

I don't need to change the ability, just the flavor to change the role

Example
A rogue has a fan of knives ability.
A rogue/tank generates threat with any knife ability. Now every time he spams fan of knives he is generating AOE threat too.
That could literally be all that augment does.
Another augment could lead to increased dodge/evasion every time they cast something, or as long as they keep moving?

I mean half the tank archetype abilities just have this generates threat tacked on the end... Why not make that part of the augments?

Biccus

All tanking comes down to is threat(hate) generation and survivability. It’s really not that hard to add those aspects to other archetype abilities.

Percimes

Biccus wrote: »

All tanking comes down to is threat(hate) generation and survivability. It’s really not that hard to add those aspects to other archetype abilities.

^This^
In the context of a small group, like 2-3 friends questing together, it might be enough to make things go smoothly. Or enough to give the hardiness to survive the attack of another player.

In a full group context it might be a nice tool to take charge of an unexpected add without stressing to much about it, or protect another member of the party until the main tank regain the aggro. Splitting groups of mobs by pulling some off the main tanks and dealing with them first/last as the group decide.

X/tanks won't turk ther jerbs.

tautau

Back in L2 I built an archer with an evasion build, maximizing evasion every way that I could figure out how to.

She was great at dropping trains on bots and gold farmers, which was my original intention for her. I found that she was a decent tank under limited circumstances...particularly against smaller bosses. When she had the vampiric rage buff (returning part of the damage she did as healing on herself), she could solo all kinds of things.

So I agree with @Vhaeyne that innovative experimentation might allow a player to discover all kinds of interesting possibilities. And there isn't any particular reason that you have to share your discovery with others!

Dygz

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

I don't need to change the ability, just the flavor to change the role

Example
A rogue has a fan of knives ability.
A rogue/tank generates threat with any knife ability. Now every time he spams fan of knives he is generating AOE threat too.
That could literally be all that augment does.
Another augment could lead to increased dodge/evasion every time they cast something, or as long as they keep moving?

I mean half the tank archetype abilities just have this generates threat tacked on the end... Why not make that part of the augments?

Nope. That is not how it works.
Primary Archetype determines the class role. Secondary archetype adds "flavor".
A Rogue/Tank could generate some threat but not as much threat as a Tank/Rogue - not as much threat as any Tank/x.
Which is why Tank/Rogue would be main tank while Rogue/Tank could be an off-tank.

You're asking "why not make that part of augments" when I already explained to you that augments are purposefully designed to not be as powerful as abilities.

Dygz

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I dunno what you mean by attitude - that is the game design.

The defeatist... you can't do it because "Primary roles" attitude. You gave up before you even tried it.
Who knows what crazy ass builds will be possible.

It's not a defeatist attitude. That is the game design.
Doesn't mean you can't try. Just because you try something doesn't mean it's possible for it to work.

SirChancelot

Dygz wrote: »

Nope. That is not how it works.

Bruh. There's so little information on augments and secondary effects, that you saying it's not possible with such black and white conviction carries almost zero weight. This is all speculation until more information about it comes out...

As far as my opinion goes
If tank/x is the only option for a tank
and cleric/x is the only option for a healer
Their party builds are going to get very stale very fast. Opening it up to where x/tank or x/cleric can tank and heal would be an excellent move.

Keep in mind I'm not saying every x/tank should be a good option... Example I don't think a Bard/tank should be able to tank anything, that's very out of wheelhouse and doesn't make sense lore wise.

Blackford

I just hope that Tank/Tank is as good a tank as Tank/Cleric or Tank/Bard but that their not "better". Unless their balanced theres going to be a glut of the meta tanks and outliers might be shunned.

Percimes

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Keep in mind I'm not saying every x/tank should be a good option... Example I don't think a Bard/tank should be able to tank anything, that's very out of wheelhouse and doesn't make sense lore wise.

The bard/tank grabs the mob by the hand and force it to dance with him, the rest of the party slash and throw spells at it on every forcefully imposed spin !

And nothing taunts as much as a kazoo, we all know that.

Songcaller

When we say Tank/X can tank everything we are quoting the Devs. The Devs literally said that. We are not sure how the secondary schools will work. You could build a tank from scratch and take threat generation from the secondary archetype, if there is a threat school but you could lack the oh shit button (Ultimate Defence), possibly lack charges, lack grapples, lack Hard CC. There is more to the Tank/X than threat generation.

SirChancelot

Neurath wrote: »

When we say Tank/X can tank everything we are quoting the Devs. The Devs literally said that. We are not sure how the secondary schools will work. You could build a tank from scratch and take threat generation from the secondary archetype, if there is a threat school but you could lack the oh shit button (Ultimate Defence), possibly lack charges, lack grapples, lack Hard CC. There is more to the Tank/X than threat generation.

Ok
But all of those are abilities of the tank archetype so the tank/x play style...
The x/tank's could just as easily have oh shit buttons
A mage could ice shield absorbing a ton of damage... They have CC with black hole

The rogue could Shadowform giving him 100% Dodge for a few seconds... Maybe he won't have a hard CC but he should have better mobility than the tank archetype

It doesn't have to be the tank archetype style of straight damage reduction because I have a big shield

I guess I'm just hoping that they use this system to add variants of play styles for a role and not every tank have to be tank archetype and play the same

SirChancelot

Percimes wrote: »

[

And nothing taunts as much as a kazoo, we all know that.

I stand corrected

Songcaller

I'm not against X/Tanks tanking, I just can't give false hope when we don't know what the augments will do. We also don't know anything about Rogue Skills beyond a stealth which isn't full stealth. I would hope you could build a tank - I've tanked as a Sorcerer in ESO and a Monk in EQ2 and Teras Kasi in SWG. I can appreciate the thrill of having a unique and flavoursome Tank compared to a standard tank. You won't unlock Tank Secondary until level 25 so you won't be tanking low level instances or named mobs without a lot of movement. Of course, you do not need a Tank/X to kite the mobs, I would imagine a Ranger/Tank or a Mage/Tank would be the best kiters.

Sathrago

what I fear most is that they take the scared developer route and make augments hardly change anything about your primary archetype. If I pick the right gear and talents I should be able to tank some forms of content on a class that is X/tank. The tank augments should be granting me survivability, cc, and threat generation. If the secondary archetype does not make my character better at fulfilling the role that said archetype primarily fulfils then I don't know why we even need such a useless system.

Songcaller

According to the wiki, we can glean extra threat generation augments from Social and Religious Augments. I don't know how substantial the threat generation augments will be, but, they could be an extra option for Tank Players.

Dygz

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

Bruh. There's so little information on augments and secondary effects, that you saying it's not possible with such black and white conviction carries almost zero weight. This is all speculation until more information about it comes out...

As far as my opinion goes
If tank/x is the only option for a tank
and cleric/x is the only option for a healer
Their party builds are going to get very stale very fast. Opening it up to where x/tank or x/cleric can tank and heal would be an excellent move.

Keep in mind I'm not saying every x/tank should be a good option... Example I don't think a Bard/tank should be able to tank anything, that's very out of wheelhouse and doesn't make sense lore wise.

There is plenty of info.
Steven has been talking about how it works for over 4 years now.
What I say doesn't have to carry weight. You can believe it or not.
Your lack of belief will not change the game design.

https://youtu.be/ZnoHtzaQeMs?t=3077

Saedu

I sure hope some of the X/Tank classes can tank. I also hope some Tank/X classes can do viable DPS. This could be achieved if the Augments are done the right way. For example, a tank augment might be something like "lower damage on x spell by 50% but reduce damage taken for 12 seconds after using x spell". Maybe some modifiers on other abilities that increase threat, etc.

I think the main archtype you select should dictate the primary playstyle as well as at least one of the roles, but the augments (and gear) should provide some variability. I like classes that can do more than one role (not at the same time, but by switching the talent setup/augments, etc).

Here's to hoping IS will do some good stuff with the augments and make them meaningful, not just minor flavor.

SirChancelot

If anything your video says it's possible
42:50 your augments can change your abilities and your ROLE in a group

And the whole discussion at 53 min about cleric secondary augments... It will CHANGE PRIMARY ABILITIES allowing them to heal others... Even says activated abilities could look totally different after an augment is applied... Maybe the mages prismatic beam will turn into a prismatic shield...

That all is exactly what I'm talking about here.

Unfortunately you only asked if all tank primary options would be viable, which he said yes to, you should have followed up with 'will any other class with tank as secondary be viable'... But you asked about cleric secondary as healing others

But he did say yes to that, so that would logically let me think that tank secondaries could tank...

Biccus

Saedu wrote: »

I think the main archtype you select should dictate the primary playstyle as well as at least one of the roles, but the augments (and gear) should provide some variability. I like classes that can do more than one role (not at the same time, but by switching the talent setup/augments, etc).

Here's to hoping IS will do some good stuff with the augments and make them meaningful, not just minor flavor.

I agree, I’ll be honest. For such an ambitious project, if the augmenting class only brings flavour I’ll be disappointed.
I want the augmenting class to be meaningful and I want the augmenting school to bring the flavour.

To be clear though I don’t want or expect x/tank to be as good as tank/x in that role, I want them to be “good enough”

Dygz

SirChancelot11 wrote: »

If anything your video says it's possible
42:50 your augments can change your abilities and your ROLE in a group

And the whole discussion at 53 min about cleric secondary augments... It will CHANGE PRIMARY ABILITIES allowing them to heal others... Even says activated abilities could look totally different after an augment is applied... Maybe the mages prismatic beam will turn into a prismatic shield...

That all is exactly what I'm talking about here.

Unfortunately you only asked if all tank primary options would be viable, which he said yes to, you should have followed up with 'will any other class with tank as secondary be viable'... But you asked about cleric secondary as healing others

But he did say yes to that, so that would logically let me think that tank secondaries could tank...

Right, so....
What 42:50 is really talking about is the 8 variations of each Primary Archetype.
And, yes, your primary abilities will change - some of the ways they change is by adding something extra, like a self-heal augment to a Blink or by changing a Summoner's Summon to only being able to summon one powerful thing rather than several mid-range things,
What augments won't allow someone to do is have a Mage/Cleric who acts as main healer.

The game is balanced with the Primary Archetypes; not with Secondary archetypes.

Child Item