Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error.
Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool.
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone.
Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game.
Noaani wrote: » We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players. That is a solid, sound statement. You are arguing against that.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it.
Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Did I though? If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you. Noaani wrote: » We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players. That is a solid, sound statement. You are arguing against that. Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead. Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot?
Noaani wrote: » Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error. As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down. If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around.
ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error. Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Did I though? If you look at the general specifics of the argument for combat trackers being useful in PvP, the following is the reply I gave to Dygz, yet it applies to you. Noaani wrote: » We are saying that, generally speaking, the side that is best prepared for PvP will win. We are saying that along with developing teamwork, a good part of that preparedness is working with a combat tracker to develop individual players within their various different builds, and to develop synergies between players. That is a solid, sound statement. You are arguing against that. Your answer to this is that DPS doesnt matter because you cant DPS when you're dead. Who is it that is missed the target by a long shot? How do I downvote this?
Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it. This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team. There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like. EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
Trax wrote: » Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
Recluse74 wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error. As Adam Savage once said, the difference between science and goofing around, is writing things down. If you are going out to try and come up with a good build without a damage meter, you are just goofing around. I will respond to this... Buy a pen and paper.. happy sciencing!
Trax wrote: » ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error. Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing. Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates.
ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » Trax wrote: » ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » Trax wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I agree, in a game that's supposedly doesn't cater to "care bears" and where the winning condition for many of the events is literally who does the most DPS it's kinda crazy to have people request having numbers on our tooltips. Perspective is a funny thing. See, from my perspective damage meters are a form of carebear hand holding where you are receiving artificial feedback from a script about how your performance is. To me, it’s more hardcore to go out and figure it out through trial and error. Ashes will have the highest stakes pvp wise in any mmorpg I have played , you stand to lose a lot. Do you really want to risk trail and error when comes to losing your node to a siege or having some guild swoop in and out damage your own guild for looting rights to a raid boss and lose the good drops from it? I would prefer knowing what my guild members are capable of doing then not knowing. Perspective again. Ashes is pretty low to moderate stakes compared to say, Darkfall Online or Mortal Online. Both did just fine without meters. You learn to know who’s pulling their weight and who’s not, if that’s all you care about in your teammates. You stand to lose a node that has been develop by the hard work of its citizens , you talking about higher tier crafting stations , resources , raiding spots and other pve content that was unlock in the node area , you can lose your freehold spots and housing. That is a lot to lose and you stand a better chance not lose it if you know who the best players to take to defend all of that in a siege battle.
Recluse74 wrote: » EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them.
roost wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them. So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number.
Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » I am starting to think some of you have never mass PvP'd before and if you did, it was not well coordinated. Because in mass PvP, once the shot caller points out the next target, the target is dead before they can even click a skill.... tool tips/meters have no use here. Your argument seems to assume most PvP is going to be during mass events. Honestly the most common PvP will likely happen in small squads of less than 5 people as players bump into each other out in the wild. If I get deleted during a 1v1 I want to know what I should have done to be stronger and that's exactly what the meters are for. On top of that the game isn't solely PvP...many PvP players will have to venture into dungeons and kill mobs so knowing how to maximize your damage under ideal conditions will be helpful to everyone. Open world PvP... that is your argument... Ok let us go with that. What level are you when this open world PvP happens? What level was the player you fought? What level/grade gear did you have on? What level/grade gear did your opponent have on? What level/grade weapon did you have equipped? What level/grade weapon did your opponent have equipped? What Archetype/Class are you? What Archetype/Class was your opponent? What Augments were you using? What Augments was your opponent using? See what I am getting at? You have no way of knowing half of those answers, so a meter will not help you. It will help you against a target dummy... but not in real world PvP unless you have the answers to every question above about your opponent and before you face that specific opponent. Which will not happen unless your opponent is just a super nice person who is willing to give you all of that info before you fight. When you sit at a dummy to test damage it goes like: * Rotation A in gear set A * Rotation B in gear set A * Rotation A in gear set B * Rotation B in gear set B * etc Not so I can stroke myself to the meter while in combat, but so that I know I'm as prepared as I can be before even walking out of town. I don't need every single bit of information on my opponent before a fight, but I should be able to have that info on myself so that I know if I lost it was at least due to a mistake on my part or something not entirely in my control, such as a class that has an advantage or a few nasty crits. However, I can't even know that if I don't know what my character should be doing and that's literally what the meter at a dummy would be for. It's already been explained once in this thread (By @Noaani on page 2) that meters are meant as a preparation tool. Sigh.... me and Noanni have had this convo. Seems that you both are cut from the same cloth so I will exit this convo before I have to listen to the same exact argument over and over again... I say... I do not want them in game because of reasons A or B. You say, I do not understand how they work and deny that reasons A or B even exist. Got ya... lol, good luck in game I guess. Before you completely leave the conversation what do you say to my comment above yours? Most arguments against meters is based on a fear of being excluded and I just don't foresee that being as big of a problem simply due to the game naturally limiting your ability to build a "perfect" team. I do not have a "fear" of meters, I just do not think they belong. Exclusion due to DPS is the least of my worries, I am either good enough, or I am not. If I am not, I will work on those issues through practice and time, not some outside program to tell me exactly what the issue is and speeding up my progress. If an MMO is a world that your character supposedly lives in, where do spreadsheets exist? I have yet to see an MMO with a spreadsheet drop table... Basically I believe in playing with what the game gives you and not using addons from another developer or dedicated player who is just looking for a quick fix. Maybe it is age on my part.. I lived at a time when things were not always instant, where as todays generation is used to having all the answers given to them at the push of a button. Do not get me wrong, I love technology and what it has given us, but there are times when doing things the hard way make the experience more joyful, It gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment.@Noaani Not going to respond to your post as you have missed the target again by a long shot. Anyway, good luck to you as well in game. Bruh how old do you think I am? The majority of AoC's fanbase lived at a time when things were not always instant.As for the spreadsheets...you should look at bodybuilding throughout the years. Humans have always been min-maxers and this was even true all the way back in the old school games like Gaia. Also, no one is asking for third party addons we're asking for intrepid to give us their own DPS meter in game so when I hit a dummy over the course of 30 seconds I have an idea of what my performance was which is no different than working out at the gym and logging it. This is the issue right here.... This is not body building, and this is not Gaia... This is AoC, and Intrepid has said... "no meters". But yet here are the meter loving crew to try and bring what they loved from their last games to a new game, instead of just accepting the new game does not want to go that route. I get that you are desperate for a good and new MMO like the rest of us... But you cannot force mechanics into a game that are not wanted by the developing team. There are mechanics not included in this game that I loved from past MMOs... but I am not in here screaming to get them added. I just take the game the way it is intended to be played and soldier on, or find a different game that has what I like. EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them. I'm not "screaming" to get them added either. I think meters in a very specific location on appropriately leveled nodes is a very minor request to allow people who do want them to not feel like we're getting completely shafted. If the game doesn't have them it's fine but when someone says it's b/c of toxicity I'll point out how I disagree same if someone says it'll unfairly benefit PvE more than PvP. It's not like I've not been on your side of the argument...I deeply don't want Arena ladders yet we seem to be getting them.
ThexBlackxKnight wrote: » roost wrote: » Recluse74 wrote: » EDIT: If Intrepid decides to add meters after the game is launched, I am not going to cry about it if they think they are needed. But as for now, they do not, and I side with them. So you admit you have no real opinion and only base how you feel about things based on what a developer says? Telling. There will be some way to find your DPS in this game. Full stop. Doesn't matter if it's supported by the devs or not, there will be a way. Whether that's through websites that sim optimal DPS, or combat log scrapers, or who knows, even a program that can read the numbers on your screen and calculate them into a readable number. Exactly guilds are going to min/max no matter what , and the only reason we have been given for no damage meters is because of toxicity. This game will be a cesspool of toxicity with or without damage meters , its going to happen because that is just how pvp players are.
