Break the Gank Box -- Evil Suggestions Needed

I was getting hyped about this game and seriously considering dropping the cash for a beta key, but now I am reconsidering ... and open world PvP is the reason.
Steven has said that he doesn't intend for Ashes to be a gank box and that he believes the corruption system will deter that.
As a pacifist MMORPG player, I timidly disagree.
But instead of whining into my herbal tea, I would like to ask the PvPers to offer up their evil plans.
How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?
Suicide to clear the corruption? Alts just for ganking? Is there a way to cash shop it away?
My intention is to provide insight into how the chaotic evil players will twist the corruption system to their own nefarious ends so that maybe the devs can tweak the system before release to make it more enjoyable for peaceful players.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

roost

Azherae wrote: »

My point is that in a fighting game, I don't have to be a specific level of competent unless I'm going to a tournament, where I'd be facing the top 100 in the world. In BDO, with my lower skill and dedicated time, I could 'randomly be attacked by the #5 player on the server' because they're practicing their assassination skills as I ride across a bridge (this sort of thing is semi common for me and possibly many others).
- - - - - - - -
The same thing can happen to a lower ranked player in most fighting games, but not if they're fighting people in standard matchmaking, mostly. If there's no way to 'ensure that the #800,000th ranked player doesn't get stomped on by the #800 rank player', what's the motivation for the first player to see any value in PvP?

This is a great point, and not one I had really considered before. Although I think that player skill will largely follow a bell curve, with most players being average, which most people should have a good chance of fighting off. It sounds like the corruption system will keep top 0.5% players from genociding the new players though. I'm not exactly sure that this is a fault of action combat though. WoW is tab target, and PvP in that game is extremely dynamic, with tons of different strategies to pull off depending on the target you're fighting.

mcstackerson

The point i was trying to make is that different games require different amounts of skill to play and there is a ceiling to how far skill can get you. In most MMOs, the combat is not as mechanically demanding as fighting games so it doesn't take as long to understand how fights play out and it doesn't require you to constantly play to keep your muscle memory fresh. An easier example of my point is classic wow. If you look at that combat, how much practice do you think it would take for you to be able to compete with others in pvp.

The other point i was trying to make is that PvE uses the same combat as pvp. It's like you are practicing against a dummy so it's not like the two are significantly different gameplay.

So i think i have two answers for your question:
1. in most MMOs, there isn't that big of a gap between the best and the worst.
2. it's preference.
An MMO's persistent world is a little different than a match based game. If it was me, i'd be motivated for the same reason you want to train with better players in a fighting game, to learn. I also have a chance to win and get the prestige of beating the best.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with MMOs so this is hard to talk about as there is more to the game then single 1v1 matches.

Azherae

I absolutely agree that there are people who will have that experience.

But when I log into ranked matches in Street Fighter, I'm choosing to fight other people. I want a chance to learn and that value is achieved through being paired against players of similar skill.

If a player never really wanted to PvP in BDO, and they get assassinated riding across a bridge while on their way to a boss that they want to participate in by someone that is so good that they never get to move... they never wanted to fight in the first place, and they stand remarkably little chance of learning anything. This is true even if the players are relatively equal in gear, and sometimes true even if they knew that the opponent was on the bridge or could be, and were prepared for combat.

I haven't played too many modern MMOs of the genre we're alluding to. I don't count Skyforge, FFXI is definitely not modern, and while what I'm saying is true in Elite Dangerous, it's easy to note that the skill cap for ED is insane. BDO is already discussed. The thing is that Apoc and their current design direction seems to be going in the direction of things like Paladins and Overwatch. Twitch reactions, precision, specific types of awareness, and 30-50 second 'TIme To Kill'.

I've had the misfortune of playing really strong players in Paladins during the 'ranking' phases of that game. It's the same thing. Practice at least 100 hours or get deleted.

But, again, at that point, I'm still choosing to play, I'll be back to my low ranked space in 10 games, and I logged in with no other objective than to 'see if I can last more than 10 seconds in a firefight'. I'm just saying that I don't see any way that the player who didn't intend to PvP and doesn't practice will see 'value' in PvP based on an open world PvP experience.

I hope that Arenas and other content like that helps, on that front.

Dygz

The way to convince PvE people that PvX is worth playing is for Corruption to be a strong enough deterrent for non-consensual PvP combat that they are rarely disrupted by non-consensual PvP combat while pursuing their PvE goals.

roost

"Non-consensual pvp" Lol, what a ridiculous phrase

mcstackerson

If you are playing a MMO with open pvp, you are intending to pvp to some degree, the same way as you intend to engage with it's pve content.

The primary reason to Pvp in the open world is more to control the world and it's resources, not to have fair fights. Not saying there won't be people trying to do that in the world, just that it's not it's primary reason for inclusion.

If you have played mobas, think of it as being similar to that where you aren't looking for fair 1v1s, you are looking to secure resources for your team.

George_Black

I wont be surprised if people start complaining about pvp in mobas.

"I just want to kill the creeps. I want to feel safe when I kill Roshan or Baron Nashor. I just like to craft items."

At this rate everybody feels comfortable wording any entitled demand.

Anyway enough attacking from me for today.

RocketFarmer

Some would argue that PVP is consensual the moment you log on and everyone else is just a carebear.

Therefore I want Intrepid to have carebear as a Tulnar race option so we can have a guild of PVP focused carebears to put this issue to bed once and for all. [sarcasm = 9.1]

Dygz

RocketFarmer wrote: »

Some would argue that PVP is consensual the moment you log on.

And those people would be wrong.

ThexBlackxKnight

@Dygz Nonsense pvp is consensual just by playing the game , corruption dose not make it non-consensual nor is it ment to. I can attack you at anytime , anywhere and not need a good reason for doing so , I have consent do that in game.

Yuyukoyay

I'm just against extreme ideas, extreme flaws, teleporting for any reason not tied to a resource cost of some kind, or ideas that ruin other parts of the game whether you use it or not.

I'm relatively confident that the game is going in the correct direction it should. It's just too soon in development to really tell if core systems are going to work or not.

My main worry with PvP is that it will just be about ganking and none of the systems put into the game to deter it will even work. I'm awaiting news of new systems to further aid current systems we know about and reinforce them so they will absolutely work.

If they add nothing then the game won't be taking into account that communities have grown in other games. That will result in a lot of the deterrents not working as intended at all.

It's impossible by this point to think positively about this genre. Trolls have ruined so many of the games in this genre in the past. Botters, Cheaters, Thieves, Gatekeepers, and the list goes on have ruined the experiences of so many games in the past.

What is going to ruin the game if anything would be systems that do not limit player input into a system effectively while limiting others to the point where they either don't work or are useless. Since this exact thing has already ruined countless others not even taking balance into account. Aside from systems in games not working as intended leaving the player base bored as hell.

I will give the game the benefit of the doubt if they continue down this path, but I'm out as soon as it deviates from that path too much for it to possibly be true. Whether that be level boosts, DPS Meters, or excessive store items that ruin the visual balance of the core game.

It's done none of these, but those are the kinds of problems I'd rather not see a game repeat.

When it comes to player agency issues I'm a little hopeful that dickheads won't take advantage of the system to the point that the game ends up sucking due to it. It's very hard for a system to be that out of hand which is why I'm biding my time for more info.

This is the only game in years I've ever had a positive outlook on. It would take a lot of stupid mistakes at this point for no reason to change my mind. I will be able to tell if it ever happened though.

Dygz

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@Dygz Nonsense pvp is consensual just by playing the game , corruption dose not make it non-consensual nor is it ment to. I can attack you at anytime , anywhere and not need a good reason for doing so , I have consent do that in game.

And, still, you are wrong. You can attack me whenever you want. If I don't give consent by flagging purple and you kill me anyway, you will be punished with Corruption.
Also, the Earth is not flat.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

And, still, you are wrong. You can attack me whenever you want. If I don't give consent by flagging purple and you kill me anyway, you will be punished with Corruption.
Also, the Earth is not flat.

Corruption is not a consenting system , you have no choice to not give consent to a attacker, all corruption does is to reduce the griefing of being attack too many times. The flagging system used in in wow and other games is a consenting system because you get a choice to flag or not.

Dygz

Corruption is punishment for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Corruption is punishment for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.

There is no non-consensual pvp in the game , you already consented to pvp just by playing the game. You have no toggle or immunity to pvp , no choice in pvp effecting you in game.

Dygz

Steven does not agree with you.
Corruption is punishment for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Talk:2020-07-19_Steven_Sharif_Interview_-_Asmongold

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Steven does not agree with you.
Corruption is punishment for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Talk:2020-07-19_Steven_Sharif_Interview_-_Asmongold

Consent is a choice , you have no choice in Ashes to not pvp , you give consent to be attack at anytime by anyone just by playing the game or non consent to pvp by not playing it.

Dygz

Non-consensual PvP is penalized with Corruption.

RocketFarmer

Punishment doesn’t eliminate the crime. It may attempt to curtail bad behavior, but it doesn’t stop it.

The psychology of a ganker is likely based on how bad the target of the attack squeals. The charitable view is they are trying to see what it’s gots in its pockets. But the type of player who ganks for the sake of ganking won’t be deterred by the punishment. It may just mean they will become more opportunistic, kind of back to the point with this thread. They really don’t need to be 100% to land the death blow while you are engaged with mobs, they just need to land the killing blow.

The other strategy would be gangs of gankers who could distribute the punishment. That’s been discussed. While it’s probably a huge waste of time to the average player, the group that would engage in this style of play probably doesn’t consider it a waste of time.

And let’s not ignore bots should they sneak past Intrepid’s defenses against them. Stay vigilant Intrepid.

I don’t think you will see very many long term career gankers. First because I think these players are basically bored and will move on after they’ve had their fun. The second reason being the number of PVP themed opportunities just provide a better experience.

Now I could see a guild of bounty hunters recruit a number of players to play the role of criminals. For those players, it may be more of a role playing thing than PVX effectiveness. Plus, as I said, you don’t need to be 100% to land the killing blow with the right opportunity.

Bottom line, generalized rules and punishments tend to fail if they assume everyone has the same motivations and values.

For example, I can easily see players who will want to make the gankiest ganker despite the huge penalties for doing so, then picking the right moment to get their gank in. If they could run around with a rubber chicken to deal the killing blow they would do so only to be that more obnoxious. They are after your reaction. In essence they are role players, probably the worst kind too. It’s like the streakers who run out onto the football field. And banning them would be their Super Bowl.

They don’t value what you value. When the ban hammer starts coming down they will then find ways to blend in with the opportunistic PVXers, but will find other ways to perform their shenanigans. They evolve, and not necessarily for the better.

Was that evil enough? BTW, any and all of these options would bore me to death. It would be tedious for me.

I honestly think Intrepid has better things to do than police this. I don’t think it’s an issue that will require much attention, and GMs are there to observe and protect. Where it might get difficult is in opportunistic PVX play where they are after resources. There will be players who won’t like that and may abuse the reporting system.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Non-consensual PvP is penalized with Corruption.

You cant not consent to something you cant prevent in the first place , think on that one.

Child Item