Break the Gank Box -- Evil Suggestions Needed

I was getting hyped about this game and seriously considering dropping the cash for a beta key, but now I am reconsidering ... and open world PvP is the reason.
Steven has said that he doesn't intend for Ashes to be a gank box and that he believes the corruption system will deter that.
As a pacifist MMORPG player, I timidly disagree.
But instead of whining into my herbal tea, I would like to ask the PvPers to offer up their evil plans.
How will you get around the corruption system to gank as many innocent noobs as possible?
Suicide to clear the corruption? Alts just for ganking? Is there a way to cash shop it away?
My intention is to provide insight into how the chaotic evil players will twist the corruption system to their own nefarious ends so that maybe the devs can tweak the system before release to make it more enjoyable for peaceful players.

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Comments

tautau

Does a girl going into a bar mean that she consents to a jerk grabbing her butt? Of course not.

Does logging into a game mean you consent to pvp? Of course not.

Sure you can grab her butt, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD grab her butt. In life there are consequences, including getting slapped, getting your butt kicked, or being arrested for grabbing her butt. In AoC you can attack anyone, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD attack anyone. In AoC the consequences are corruption, maybe other players kicking your butt and also getting the rep for being a jerk.

RocketFarmer

Probably not the best choice of analogy. Physical assault is different than a video game.

ThexBlackxKnight

tautau wrote: »

Does a girl going into a bar mean that she consents to a jerk grabbing her butt? Of course not.

Does logging into a game mean you consent to pvp? Of course not.

Sure you can grab her butt, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD grab her butt. In life there are consequences, including getting slapped, getting your butt kicked, or being arrested for grabbing her butt. In AoC you can attack anyone, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD attack anyone. In AoC the consequences are corruption, maybe other players kicking your butt and also getting the rep for being a jerk.

You are agreeing to rules of a open world pvp just by logging in knowing that it can happen to you. The consent is already given as soon as you start playing. Non-consent cant exist when its already given. Corruption is not a system of consent because its doesnt give you the choice not having your but kick by a pvp player.

Dygz

Corruption is a penalty for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.
And that penalty increases the more you do it.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

Corruption is a penalty for forcing non-consensual PvP combat.
And that penalty increases the more you do it.

You already consented to pvp by playing in a open world pvp game. Your are permanently flagged for pvp in Ashes. You have no choice in that. No one is forcing pvp in a game that allows it.

JustVine

Sure, 'no one is forcing you'. No one is forcing you to stay logged in to life either. Others have said the 'bar' analogy does not apply to a video game, but they also don't answer the question op actually poses. Do we want people who aren't interested in pvp to join the game. Are we satisfied with it being possible to harass crafters? The corruption system is designed to make the game more appealing and less frustrating to crafters and other less combat oriented people. Without them you'd have to significantly rethink the economy of Verra. Just as we'd have a problem irl if society didn't keep other people from harrassing others. It is consent because you as a ganker are breaking the rules of civility. Going 'I'm allowed to kill you because you are playing my game and we have no flags >;3 is a quick way to lose a lot of people's interest in you and your 'game'. This is why IS has had the sense to make it a risk.

On the other hand if you want that to not be /possible/ I'd have to ask you why you want to play ashes.? To op @SpiralMadheart , I'd have to ask you 'what risk is acceptable'? AoC does have various corruption systems. You are asking the reassurance from other people willing to gank you if they can 'break the system'. As you can see, they aren't able to answer you. So instead I ask you 'is what is currently there not enough assuming they can't 'cheat the system'?'

ThexBlackxKnight

@JustVine
I am a pvp player I will thrive in the game as it is currently planned. I also believe the corruption system will still be too much for the majority of traditional pve only players to deal with. A traditional flagging system is the best compromise and would actually make it a true pvx game because you will have free will in consenting to pvp or not and that solution would draw in a lot more pve players to the game. Rest assured a lot of pvp players are not concerned about civility nor care about a non-combatants feelings in matter of being gank in pvp.

Merek

I'll keep it simple, it's an MMORPG. You can't control what other players do but you can prepare yourself to effectively deal with troublesome players. And if that is too scary for you, the thought of risk attached to your reward, you should go elsewhere.

akabear

Can`t see much ganking happening after the game has settled a few months in and players have started to find their homes in various guilds.

Solo players will be largely left alone. PvE only guilds will be left mostly alone, just depends a little who they ally with.

Those that are part of a PvX clan that want a bit of peace for a while will de-tag and go solo or be unofficial guild members for a while.

Ganking if part of guild will influence reputation and relationships so, again can`t see that happening so much.

And there will just be a smattering of those that gank infrequently

ThexBlackxKnight

akabear wrote: »

Solo players will be largely left alone.

I am not sure what open world world pvp game you played that this actually happens. Steven said one of the reasons for the corruption system is that guilds can deal with random players showing on their turf and gathering resources. These places will be guarded , pvp guilds will be that petty. I can't see this game not being a gank box because of how looting rights are set up and the fact the pve content is always changing because of node destruction. Its hard to keep a lasting peaceful setup with Guilds when they always going to have to fight for new loot spots.

Dygz

https://youtu.be/8l12DLKqJ5w?t=1521

STEVEN: What type of player do we want?
Our game is designed for a PvX mentality. It is a lot of both worlds. And what we just described in the Node system as a way to develop the world - the 2nd pillar being Meaningful Conflict is our catalyst for change.
So if a world has Nodes that are starting to get developed, and citizens start claiming areas and they have their Freeholds out in the realm and there ar Castles that have been taken and dungeons that lay claimed to...all those types of things... PvP in our game has meaning to it based on the systems it's involved with.

So, when we have Castle sieges, when we have Node sieges, when we have Caravans, when we have battlegrounds and arenas, there's a purpose for that performance on the players' end in participating with those events. And it has real world effects.
We're not creating a gankbox. We're not creating a murderbox.

There is a flagging system that is in place that highly dis-incentivizes just outright murder.
We, however, do want to see conflict erupt and we do want to see that conflict have a system to see out what the result will be.

JEFF: Yeah. The design of the game really doesn't function to well unless there's a way for the players to destroy it. And, that's where the PvP comes in. Where, if a Node is built, that's cool. And then another Node is built, that's cool. Eventually all the Nodes that can be built will be built and then...our game is just a static themepark at that point. We need the ability for people to have conflict, to have a reason to tear things down, and to pit players against each other.
It's definitely a part of the game.
We realize that people are concerned about it but, again, I don't think we're gonna see guilds coming in and just wrecking a bunch of newbies because that's going to be hard to do.

STEVEN: They won't be able to. No.

JEFF: The flagging system does a lot to prevent that. There will be people who do gank other people. That's going to happen. They're going to find ways to do it. But, it's not going to be widespread and we're going to do a lot of testing to make sure it isn't.
The numbers we're using right now are just test numbers but Alphas and Betas will bring us closer to something that is close to perfect. It will never be perfect. There will always be situations where you find yourself on the wrong end of a sword. But, that's also part of the game.

STEVEN: But, the best way we can say, at this stage is:
Our intent is to make sure that Ashes of Creation is not a gankbox.

roost

Who cares if pvp is "consensual" or not, it's a video game. Nobody whines about this in other games. Getting ganked is part of MMOs, go play a singleplayer RPG like the Witcher 3 if you don't like the classic hallmarks of the genre. This isn't real life, and I will absolutely hurt your feelings by killing your flower-gathering character as I please.

You shouldn't be able to just roam around and gather while marked green with impunity and zero risk of being killed by other players. And before some halfwit chimes in to say "well uhhh actually there is risk because you can still get killed", the corruption system heavily punishes that, so I'd say green players will be safe 90% of the time.

ThexBlackxKnight

@Dygz

They can call it a pvx game all they want but most pve players will not play this game since they don't want pvp to effect their gameplay whatsoever. Players like you will be the minority , not the majority, this game will be very cut throat by game design which will appeal a lot more to pvp players.

CountVlad

Penalty systems don't always work (or more so, they don't deter some, who really just want to PK). Lineage 1 and 2 had Karma systems (Lawful/Chaotic). Full Lawful in Lineage 1 actually meant you wouldn't drop gear (I don't recall if this was the same in L2). One of the ways people got around this was using DPS classes with just a weapon (in Lineage mages were best, in L2, early on dagger classes and archers worked well.). Sure you might not hit as hard or have as high defenses, but the person being PK'ed is not prepared, often happening at lower than 50% hp due to mobs, or purely just out leveled. Or do the same, but in a pack of 3 or more.

Another way used to be, be lawful in full gear, then kill someone and palm your gear off to a friend and farm back law points with a group or in an out of the way place.

Another trick in Lineage 1 was, when you attacked someone you went pink, so you were actively engaged in PvP and the other person would go pink as well if they attacked you back. But if you didn't attack back, you would go back to normal after a period of time. If you timed this right, you could get people to kill you and go red themselves, then you have your friends kill them for gear.

I haven't looked into the system in Ashes yet, so the above scenarios might not even work.

In Lineage 2 I spent about 2 months just killing PKs in the newbie area as a Bounty Hunter. I dressed in newbie gear and a low level bow, I could stun a PK with bow then kill them in no gear or swap in high level gear after stun. My name (Hawkeye, from M*A*S*H not avengers, but I'm maybe showing my age now haha) also made it seem like I was a archer not a dagger toon, so people would let me get close. So systems can work well for anti-PKs as well. We used to say "If it's red, it's dead".

I will say, in Lineage 1 and 2 PKs weren't rampant, or even regular. You might see 1 in a day if you were lucky, most likely not even fight them, as they were already running away from someone else. Newbie areas tended to have a couple running around now and then, as it was easy to level high enough to kill newbs without gear. But for the vast majority of the time, you were never bothered by a PK and if there was 1 or a group, people tended to band together and take them out, or a higher level person would come and just crush them.

maouw

TestEagle wrote: »

Penalty systems don't always work (or more so, they don't deter some, who really just want to PK). Lineage 1 and 2 had Karma systems (Lawful/Chaotic). Full Lawful in Lineage 1 actually meant you wouldn't drop gear (I don't recall if this was the same in L2). One of the ways people got around this was using DPS classes with just a weapon (in Lineage mages were best, in L2, early on dagger classes and archers worked well.). Sure you might not hit as hard or have as high defenses, but the person being PK'ed is not prepared, often happening at lower than 50% hp due to mobs, or purely just out leveled. Or do the same, but in a pack of 3 or more.

Another way used to be, be lawful in full gear, then kill someone and palm your gear off to a friend and farm back law points with a group or in an out of the way place.

Another trick in Lineage 1 was, when you attacked someone you went pink, so you were actively engaged in PvP and the other person would go pink as well if they attacked you back. But if you didn't attack back, you would go back to normal after a period of time. If you timed this right, you could get people to kill you and go red themselves, then you have your friends kill them for gear.

I haven't looked into the system in Ashes yet, so the above scenarios might not even work.

In Lineage 2 I spent about 2 months just killing PKs in the newbie area as a Bounty Hunter. I dressed in newbie gear and a low level bow, I could stun a PK with bow then kill them in no gear or swap in high level gear after stun. My name (Hawkeye, from M*A*S*H not avengers, but I'm maybe showing my age now haha) also made it seem like I was a archer not a dagger toon, so people would let me get close. So systems can work well for anti-PKs as well. We used to say "If it's red, it's dead".

I will say, in Lineage 1 and 2 PKs weren't rampant, or even regular. You might see 1 in a day if you were lucky, most likely not even fight them, as they were already running away from someone else. Newbie areas tended to have a couple running around now and then, as it was easy to level high enough to kill newbs without gear. But for the vast majority of the time, you were never bothered by a PK and if there was 1 or a group, people tended to band together and take them out, or a higher level person would come and just crush them.

Can confirm:
- going red locks disables p2p trading/storage
- going red puts a 60 second timer for logging off on your character

everything else is pretty much the same as L2

---

also corrupted players can fight bounty hunters without penalty - but killing any extra greens increases their corruption.

fabula

I agree with those saying pretty much all of pvp will only happen in one of the pvp themes of the game. Stat dampening and the murder counts only being clearable by tedious questing is the real corruption penalty. It cannot be xp or gear loss because there's no deleveling and why would someone go pking using their best gear?.

I also do not see pking as a viable option to prevent ppl from gathering whatever gatherables you consider being yours. This would mean the penalty for killing a non-combatant is low enough that you would do it for that piece of wood they are trying to gather.

I have never viewed reds as being much of a problem. They are easy to deal with pk penalties. Having to worry about being pked because you went to hunt/gather into what somebody else considers their turf is a problem. Having to constantly run around in a group for the most mundane of activies such as gathering wood because you want to try out the crafting system is a problem.

If a non-combatant has to worry about anyone killing them at all outside any of the pvp themes that means the corruption system is not working. I don't see how ppl can expect a working corruption system and at the same time have the atmosphere of the game be one where ppl are constantly watching their backs, you cannot have both, one cancels out the other.

Dygz

ThexBlackxKnight does not expect a working Corruption system.

ThexBlackxKnight

Dygz wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight does not expect a working Corruption system.

Its not red players that will be ganking you the most. In fact the guilds can declare wars on yours just for the sole purpose of killing you because they dont like you, corruption free. If you think pvp players are not petty enough to do so , good luck.

George_Black

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

ThexBlackxKnight does not expect a working Corruption system.

Its not red players that will be ganking you the most. In fact the guilds can declare wars on yours just for the sole purpose of killing you because they dont like you, corruption free. If you think pvp players are not petty enough to do so , good luck.

It is an open world mmorpg.
Not instanced raiding, not battlegrounds.

Okeydoke

ThexBlackxKnight wrote: »

@JustVine
A traditional flagging system is the best compromise and would actually make it a true pvx game because you will have free will in consenting to pvp or not and that solution would draw in a lot more pve players to the game.

You just caved bro. I was following your arguments and then bam you just cave. You can't do that. You somehow just got talked into agreeing to exactly what they want. You were doing pretty good too lol.

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