Maezriel wrote: » I would argue that w/o immersive elements such as tavern games, or even something like horse taming in BDO, that Ashes would be more MOBA than MMORPG in which case why not just revert development back to APOC?
Noaani wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I would argue that w/o immersive elements such as tavern games, or even something like horse taming in BDO, that Ashes would be more MOBA than MMORPG in which case why not just revert development back to APOC? The main thing that sets apart an MMO from a MOBA is not immersive elements like horse gaming or tavern games. It is the notion of a persistent world. You can have an MMO without tavern games or horse training - indeed there are already dozens of MMO's without them.
Maezriel wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I would argue that w/o immersive elements such as tavern games, or even something like horse taming in BDO, that Ashes would be more MOBA than MMORPG in which case why not just revert development back to APOC? The main thing that sets apart an MMO from a MOBA is not immersive elements like horse gaming or tavern games. It is the notion of a persistent world. You can have an MMO without tavern games or horse training - indeed there are already dozens of MMO's without them. Specifically tavern games and horse training? Sure. Collecting cosmetics, mounts, player housing, etc? Far less. There are plenty of side/immersive elements in nearly every single MMO. Persistence is only a piece of it.
Noaani wrote: » I personally would be fine playing a game where the developer took all time spent on immersion only aspects and redirected it instead to aspects related to systems, mechanics and gameplay. I'll take a great encounter any day over a great story. I can always find a great story by reading a book or watching a show, if I really want one. I can only get a great encounter in a game.
Vhaeyne wrote: » ariatras wrote: » what would you consider excessive? Anything beyond basic chairs and emotes that takes a lot for the developers to develop and maintain. Currently, things like the Taverns, Parlor games, VoIP are things I consider excessive RP tools. Again, I understand some of this stuff has been stated features since the Kickstarter, but that does not mean they are good for the game in my opinion. ariatras wrote: » Roleplayers do not actually require a whole lot. Which is why I am fine with things like chairs, emotes, chat channels for RP. I am actually aware of the total role-play add-on. One night while drinking my friend sat in Stormwind on the "Deviant Delight" classic wow server and read profiles to the boys and me while we laughed on into the night. Mind you, some of it was respectable stuff worthy of my D&D table, but there was some "Adult" stuff that made me shoot beer from my nose. From what I have seen of Total role-play it stores simple texts like an online D&D character sheet. That does not seem like something that would be an extreme investment for the DEVs. I would be for that. In fact, DDO has a "Bio" page that lets you set a long text that anyone can see when they inspect you for the same purpose. This is good for RPers, but I have also seen hard core raiders and traders use it to list attunements or items in their warehouse. I think everyone could get use out of something universal like a big blank page.
ariatras wrote: » what would you consider excessive?
ariatras wrote: » Roleplayers do not actually require a whole lot.
Noaani wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Noaani wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I would argue that w/o immersive elements such as tavern games, or even something like horse taming in BDO, that Ashes would be more MOBA than MMORPG in which case why not just revert development back to APOC? The main thing that sets apart an MMO from a MOBA is not immersive elements like horse gaming or tavern games. It is the notion of a persistent world. You can have an MMO without tavern games or horse training - indeed there are already dozens of MMO's without them. Specifically tavern games and horse training? Sure. Collecting cosmetics, mounts, player housing, etc? Far less. There are plenty of side/immersive elements in nearly every single MMO. Persistence is only a piece of it. You specifically said Maezriel wrote: » I would argue that w/o immersive elements such as tavern games, or even something like horse taming in BDO, that Ashes would be more MOBA than MMORPG in which case why not just revert development back to APOC? Important part bolded. My argument here would be that you could make an MMO without any immersive elements to it at all. A persistent world, good combat system, good content. People would play that MMO. My argument would then follow that without a persistent world, you dont have an MMO and so may as well be developing a MOBA. I fully agree that every game has some elements that exist just for immersion. However, without those elements all the developer would be doing is aiming the MMO at a narrower audience, not making a game from a different genre. I personally would be fine playing a game where the developer took all time spent on immersion only aspects and redirected it instead to aspects related to systems, mechanics and gameplay. I'll take a great encounter any day over a great story. I can always find a great story by reading a book or watching a show, if I really want one. I can only get a great encounter in a game.
ariatras wrote: » Quite a late reply. Apologies, I'm not as active here as I have been in days passed. Yea, I am lucky enough to play on a server where 99 percent of the adult profiles (to put it mildly) are drawn to one location. Specifically the Goldshire inn, it's giving me some right laughs too. As a result, I usually just see normal profiles.
ariatras wrote: » As for your other point. I don't actually see tavern games as an RP tool, it's a neat little addition to the game, if nothing else. That is not to say they cannot be RP tools. In the past I've argued, for example. That rather than code a game and all its rules and what not.A simple addition of a card pack and let players play their own card games. That would be much more of an RP tool. And arguably a lot more value. But it's going to be incredibly niche, a novelty at best. So I'm pretty conflicted about it. Given some other interesting choices made this isn't high on my list of concerns.
Maezriel wrote: » They've completely forgotten that a key part of the MMO experience is simulating a living, breathing, world which is a goal found all the way back in some of the oldest games of the genre.
Maezriel wrote: » If you want a persistent world that's just systems then that's pretty much Path of Exile.
Noaani wrote: » What I will say is that you literally just pointed to the most popular MMORPG and the most popular ARPG as being games with little to no story - which just proves the point that story really just isn't needed. It is nice to have, for sure - and in most games my first alt is all about exploring the games story- but it is not at all needed.
Maezriel wrote: » Noaani wrote: » What I will say is that you literally just pointed to the most popular MMORPG and the most popular ARPG as being games with little to no story - which just proves the point that story really just isn't needed. It is nice to have, for sure - and in most games my first alt is all about exploring the games story- but it is not at all needed. It's important to note that plenty of WoW clones have had better systems and gameplay loops yet repeatedly failed. You can't ignore that it was the years of backstory from it's RTS days that got players invested in the original concept of Vanilla and it's that investment that's kept them hooked even as the game has continually fallen from grace. I'm not saying all games need a story to succeed...I don't care about it in Overwatch, League, or Apex. However, there's probably a good reason many of the top MMOs over the last decade all came from IPs w/ mountains of lore; WoW, ESO, SWTOR, FFXIV, Neverwinter Even in the genre there's plenty of games that don't require a story, but they do have little immersive things. WoW is really the only one that gets away w/ no player housing. MMOs are grindy as hell and these things provide a way for players to slow their burnout. And as I've been saying, it's not like Intrepid is adding a whole lot of roleplay tools. There's far more egregious sources of bloat than anything roleplayers are asking for.
Maezriel wrote: » It's important to note that plenty of WoW clones have had better systems and gameplay loops yet repeatedly failed. You can't ignore that it was the years of backstory from it's RTS days that got players invested in the original concept of Vanilla and it's that investment that's kept them hooked even as the game has continually fallen from grace.
Maezriel wrote: » I'm not saying all games need a story to succeed...I don't care about it in Overwatch, League, or Apex. However, there's probably a good reason many of the top MMOs over the last decade all came from IPs w/ mountains of lore; WoW, ESO, SWTOR, FFXIV, Neverwinter Even in the genre there's plenty of games that don't require a story, but they do have little immersive things. WoW is really the only one that gets away w/ no player housing. MMOs are grindy as hell and these things provide a way for players to slow their burnout. And as I've been saying, it's not like Intrepid is adding a whole lot of roleplay tools. There's far more egregious sources of bloat than anything roleplayers are asking for.
Dygz wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » I'm not saying all games need a story to succeed...I don't care about it in Overwatch, League, or Apex. However, there's probably a good reason many of the top MMOs over the last decade all came from IPs w/ mountains of lore; WoW, ESO, SWTOR, FFXIV, Neverwinter Even in the genre there's plenty of games that don't require a story, but they do have little immersive things. WoW is really the only one that gets away w/ no player housing. MMOs are grindy as hell and these things provide a way for players to slow their burnout. And as I've been saying, it's not like Intrepid is adding a whole lot of roleplay tools. There's far more egregious sources of bloat than anything roleplayers are asking for. Overwatch is a team-based FPS. It's not an RPG. League of Legends is a MOBA. It's not an RPG. Apex Legends is a Battle Royale. It's not an RPG. An MMOFPS doesn't need roleplaying tools. Though, even Fortnite and Overwatch have dance emotes.
Maezriel wrote: » Players such as Noaani & Vhaeyne will have far less heads to bash in if no one is playing the game b/c the majority of MMO players want to feel a part of a living world and pure roleplayers needs systems players to help drive the in game content.
Maezriel wrote: » Re-read that part of the conversation. I was showcasing very successful games that rely solely on it's systems and don't really need a story while pointing out that the most successful MMOs tend to need an established lore as the majority of the playerbase wants to feel immersed in the world.
Noaani wrote: » Maezriel wrote: » Players such as Noaani & Vhaeyne will have far less heads to bash in if no one is playing the game b/c the majority of MMO players want to feel a part of a living world and pure roleplayers needs systems players to help drive the in game content. I don't really disagree with your post (though some points require specific context) other than the one word bolded above. It isn't the majority. Again, if it were, lifeless games like WoW (even if there is story that exists, it isn't in the actual game) would be dead. Edit to add. EQ2 - great story, great storytelling. Rift - great story, ok storytelling. LotRO, great story, fairly good story telling. WoW, ok story, shit storytelling. Archeage, ok story, ok storytelling. Age of Conan, good story, good storytelling. ESO, great story, good storytelling. Find a connection in there in terms of how well each game has done in relation to story/storytelling.
