Farming, Carpentry and In-Game Functioning Furniture

Hello All,

I've been reading through the less elaborated wiki pages and had an open question for the community.

To preface this conversation let me share two quotes from the wiki:

In an interview last year Steven had mentioned that "Furnishing items with in-game functionality will be restricted entirely to those created by the carpentry profession." (Carpentry wiki).

And from the Freehold Farm Wiki:

"Artisan freehold features are also affected by adjacent terrain features. For example: building next to a river provides a nearby source of clean freshwater, and will have a positive effect on crops."

My question is the following how would you like the farming system to be managed:

Is it simply a "plant this seed in this area of the ground and wait, if its near a river you get +X% yield" or a more active thing "you choose a specific crop to grow depending on the environment (i.e. maybe you need a nitrogen fixing crop due to the specific soil), you must speak with a carpenter in order to get wood to build an aqueduct from the nearby river to water the water the plants in a more regular basis, tending to the plants regularly."

This will be my first MMORPG and want to get a sense on what people are hoping for/expecting.

Personally I would prefer a more difficult experience in growing because I plan on specializing in Gathering-Herbalism and want the Artisan Master title to be something that is rare and difficult and has purpose.

Thanks for your time in reading this,
Skylarck The Botanist

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maouw

Oh great question!

I like the idea that anyone can build their own amateur garden beds, but they won't be very efficient.

Instead, if you want quality building on your freehold, I'd like it if:

You designate an area on your freehold for the structure you want to build
You can deposit materials on the location for construction
Someone with the appropriate artisan skill comes to the location and does the actual construction using the deposited items and any extras from the artisan's own inventory.

I imagine you have, ~3 generic designation sizes: small, medium, large. Then the artisan has blueprints that they've learned which fit into these designations, e.g.:

Garden Bed (S)
Hydroponic Garden (M)
Orchard (L)
Greenhouse (M)
Commercial Greenhouse (L)

JustVine

Realistically speaking, there are plenty of high specialization, high difficulty crops irl that artisan level skills makes sense for.

For example orchards. Most fruit trees take a lot of grafting(super difficult dexterous work you must get right every time), time(3-7 years depending on fruit and cultivar), and therefore much higher maintenance for pest management(-shakes fist at apple borers-)

High quality plants irl aren't higher difficulty usually, they are just more expensive and sometimes higher maintenance. I dislike when a game makes end game farming JUST 'oh you can now farm magic crops that make you ultra efficient and you can now harvest this difficult to harvest class of mundane seed.' Farming as a crafting skill is difficult to translate level wise due to the nature of the job. So here is how I think this should really work.

Basic Farming:

- Choosing area should be fairly important to what kind of crops you can grow productively there (bdo's system was pretty good in this respect.)
- Pest management should have an active component. Building fences to keep out pests, maintaining fences, removing weeds at earlier stages maybe for some trash loot, manually removing giant beetles, birds, etc very rarely at later stages.
- Fertilizing, irrigation and crop rotation should be a fairly important aspect. Farming irl is 20 percent planning and problem solving and 80 percent maintaining what is there and working.
- Crop diversity should absolutely be dependent on climate. (Don't plant to tomatoes in shady areas, dont plant corn if you don't live by abundant water etc.)
- Seasonal rotations and climate variations/weather is also a strongly desired mechanic.
- Edit: Yeah there should be a similar plot management system to bdo. A moveable grid area effected by terrain. My only qualm was you were forced into different sizes of squares and size was level dependent. It should be a little more freeform, but 'staking out your plot' process should be similar. But planting 1 plant per 'space' in your grid (or more for large crops like grapes trees and squash.)
- edit: The only thing restricting plot size should be land rights and money. Land rights should give you passive protection via guards from bandits. You should be able to set up a farm in the frontier though. High risk with the reward of you not paying anyone for your secret garden.

The Meaning of Leveling:

-It is fine to restrict certain classes of plant to higher level farming. But staples need to exist just like irl. Herbs, grains, root vegetables, should never require high farming levels, only good real estate. There should always be demand for potatos and the like for cooking.
-Mid level farming should be about efficiency and tools. Mid level farmers should start having an easier time moving nodes and setting up shop through irrigation, tilling, fertilizers. Essentially more efficient and accessible versions of what is available to early farming (probably restricted.)
-Advanced farming should be about 'being the most qualified to take care of high maintenance/high difficilty crops. I personally do not want access to plants restricted vetween mid and high level farming. But it should be more economically viable. And advanced farming should be able to set up shop in more flexible locations through manipulation of the various efficiency tools like high level irrigation and fertilizer.
- Keeping player skill at all levels is about learning to adapt to new situations, maintenance, understanding of crops relative to their needs, and letting an increase in yield be the reward for that. Do not make profitable yields solely a matter of level.
- a side note: I think crop breeding should be an herbalist thing and focused on resistances to harsh environments/bonuses to optimal hard to maintain climates basedon regional variation and difficulty in irrigation/soil quality upkeep

Tl;dr
Farming can be fun and about player skill if weather, soil quality, and pests are a key piece of farrming's puzzle.

Leveling should be about an increase in flexibility, ease of relocating, and increasing over all yield by giving you tools that make you more effective at managing the land. The node system naturally requires this layer, of gameplay.

There should be some restriction to crop types available to farmers of lower levels due to their increased complexity to maintain (mainly fruit mushrooms and herbs). This restriction should be by tools requiring a certain farming level to use. Mid level farmers should have the same access but need 'easier' Farming land to make it work.

High quality plants shouldn't be restricted by level of farming. Let breeders feel important. Make 'high yield'ones fussy (and therefore easier to take advantage of by higher level farmers or lucky/rich individuals, with good land.)

JustVine

maouw wrote: »

Oh great question!

I like the idea that anyone can build their own amateur garden beds, but they won't be very efficient.

Instead, if you want quality building on your freehold, I'd like it if:
You designate an area on your freehold for the structure you want to build

You can deposit materials on the location for construction

Someone with the appropriate artisan skill comes to the location and does the actual construction using the deposited items and any extras from the artisan's own inventory.

I imagine you have, ~3 generic designation sizes: small, medium, large. Then the artisan has blueprints that they've learned which fit into these designations, e.g.:

Garden Bed (S)
Hydroponic Garden (M)
Orchard (L)
Greenhouse (M)
Commercial Greenhouse (L)

I like your blueprint idea. Good examples of high 'level''tools' allowing to grow things in more flexible ways relative to climate. I don't agree with the notion that beginner farmers should be low yield farmers however. Yield should be a factor of resisting environmental debuffs, keeping optimal moisture, keeping out parts relative to the crop in question. It's a players built up knowledge, location, capital and hard work/skill that should be the determining factors. Bdo's system was a good direction in this regard (if a little dumb due to their broken crafting and economic systems.) A little bit of dedication and investment should give you ok profit. Advanced should make you both more capable of being high yield in more environments, with more opportunities for higher profit crops as a result.

SkylarckTheBotanist

I agree with a large portion of what you are saying. I agree the plot of land you choose is important. I am hoping to build my stead in the under realm, but be able to build an aqueduct from an above surface river down to get the water benefit.

JustVine wrote: »

- a side note: I think crop breeding should be an herbalist thing and focused on resistances to harsh environments/bonuses to optimal hard to maintain climates basedon regional variation and difficulty in irrigation/soil quality upkeep

It has been confirmed that "There won't be a breeding/genetic modification mechanic associated with crops.[4]" - Farming Wiki

JustVine

Skylarck wrote: »

I agree with a large portion of what you are saying. I agree the plot of land you choose is important. I am hoping to build my stead in the under realm, but be able to build an aqueduct from an above surface river down to get the water benefit.

JustVine wrote: »

- a side note: I think crop breeding should be an herbalist thing and focused on resistances to harsh environments/bonuses to optimal hard to maintain climates basedon regional variation and difficulty in irrigation/soil quality upkeep

It has been confirmed that "There won't be a breeding/genetic modification mechanic associated with crops.[4]" - Farming Wiki

Shrooomz maaaan. I think building a well makes slightly more sense realism wise. Also tapping a river like that has some logistics complications. But I also don't see those as barriers to your vision. Which ever option lets them reuse the most sets is my preference for that sort of thing. The sentiment is the same. Underrealm farming sounds fun.

Pity about the genetics thing. Itd be an interesting thing to add to herbalism. Maybe in a later update. You could put the same function in alchemy/fertilizers but that's less interesting to me and moves it outside gathering.

maouw

@JustVine I like the direction you're going for regarding no limitations on quality - but curious why yield too?
Does it lock out niche markets for beginner farmers?

Would be cool to tie in more dependencies on other artisan specialities - various fertilizers from animal husbandry. Hay production for animal husbandry. (obvs cooking).

Also, sounds like we're going to run into some overlap with the Herbalism profession? What if herbalism was a processing class between farming and alchemy?
- produce oils
- produce yeast
- grind flour (WINDMILLS!!)

JustVine

maouw wrote: »

@JustVine I like the direction you're going for regarding no limitations on quality - but curious why yield too?
Does it lock out niche markets for beginner farmers?

Would be cool to tie in more dependencies on other artisan specialities - various fertilizers from animal husbandry. Hay production for animal husbandry. (obvs cooking).

Also, sounds like we're going to run into some overlap with the Herbalism profession? What if herbalism was a processing class between farming and alchemy?
- produce oils
- produce yeast
- grind flour (WINDMILLS!!)

@maouw I think that might just be a translation error on my part. I'll try to explain in a clearer way.

Simply put I meant that you want incentives to reward the engaging part of farmings gameplay loop at all levels.

Example (Please take none of the items or quantities used in the example seriously at ALL. They are not the point of the explanation.)

Beginner Farmer has a small 10x10 wheat field. This takes work to water and keep pests off of, but generally, if well tended to gives you 5 wheat per square. The higher level farmer on the other hand has irrigation and a scarecrow(or pesticides or w/e). The higher level farmer, with little effort also makes 5 wheat per square. Both players made the same amount of product. One of them put in more effort, but the reward is still the same.

Let's pretend then that a higher maintenance and more needy crop, a pumpkin in this example, is worth twice as much for the same amount of space. A higher level farmer now needs to put in some amount of effort in order to achieve maximum harvestable pumpkins. The beginner farmer on the other hand would not be able to achieve maximum harvest because they either don't have access to pumpkins or the pests are less manageable due to lacking some tool. The higher level farmer has the freedom to spend low effort to get some profitable amount of wheat (ie 'there is no wheat niche that only makes sense for beginners to be in.') The higher level farmer has access and capacity for more profit farming pumpkins. Economically speaking the higher level farmer (if they are doing nothing else fun or profitable,) has no REASON to not farm pumpkins IF they want to maximize their profit. The beginner level farmer does not because wheat is most accessible to them due to their plot of land, available resources, and time relative to managing the pests and water levels.

So in simple economic terms, yes the beginner farmer is less efficient than the higher level farmer, but there is also no need to exclude the higher level farmer from competing in the same market. But if you make the higher level farmers' participation through higher yield, it lowers the possible reward to lower level farmers by pressing down on price. The goal therefore is to make the economic incentive for 'higher difficulty crops' good enough that not many higher level farmers WANT to farm wheat, but if they do they are rewarded with lower effort and more free time. This is farming, you want to use the carrot not the stick.

Tyranthraxus

@Skylarck If this is to be your 1st MMORPG, you've still got time to sample other games. If you can stand the dated graphics, would even suggest checking out Star Wars Galaxies: Legends. It's the best emulator of the former game, and free-to-play (though any would-be players still need to obtain a copy of the game, before downloading the emulator files!). The crafting system is supposed to be similar, and a few of the guys at Intrepid had also worked on live-production SWG.

It's really neat that the terrain itself is a factor in the success/output of crops. Honestly, I'll still probably just be looking for a really cool spot to drop my Stronghold - despite bonuses/penalties. You'd probably be surprised at how many people ignore hilltops and views, when considering where to place in-game houses, in different games.

Ultimately, I'd favor the terrain having an effect. If you have a mine, a place near a cliffside or rocky areas could incentivize placement. Being in a wooded area could give something favorable, for timber production. Maybe grassy plains could be best, for animal husbandry/mount training.

What I'd really like to see is Religious Nodes being able to bless & blight crops. A unique way to de-centivize placement of Strongholds in parts of enemy territories.

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