Why XP Debt can be good gameplay

Firstly let's explain the reason why people don't like XP debt.

1) They are just not used to being punished with a risk/reward system. So being punished for things that happen doesn't feel good as many people are used to casually grinding through content to get rewards. Simply I think not being used to it as it hasn't been a standard part of of MMOs is part of the reason.
2) People can potentially get abused and put into a unfair situations where they get PKed over and over and they have no control over it and the amount of XP debt needed to grind back is demotivating.
3) Overall people like to feel they are progressing with their character and if XP debt over time stops their progression too much they will quit the game.

During the phase of levelling to max level skill/guilds/community will play a part in how much XP debt you incurr getting to max level which can make it a bit more interesting than just pure grinding. However for me I believe XP debt can be most useful when at max level. This is because in some ways it adds more content to the game because in most MMOs you level up/quest and then you are max level done. However if you incurr XP debt at max level then it's still important to do quests/gain XP every now and again which adds another element of replayable content. You maybe at XP debt at max level but then see some quests at a node that just levelled up, so now you have a reason to do those quests to get xp. Also this XP feeds into levelling the node it that area. It creates more content to do.

For me what's lacking in most MMOs is endgame as it's mostly just grinding instanced raids/dungeons for items/cosmetics which gets a bit repetitive and stale in my experience. So my hope is this XP debt works as an XP sink which you replenish with another form of enjoyable gameplay. The way I see why MMORPGs can be fun is the mixture of content they can give you even at end game. xp sink so you still do levelling(open world PvE)/quests at max level, crafting, open world pvp, node/castle/siege pvp/ arena pvp, dungeons, raids, economy, exploration.

thoughts?

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tautau

One of the benefits of the argument that @Dygz is making is that, when you are working to recover your XP debt from your wipe, you have the opportunity to think and discuss the raid and what caused the wipe. This leads to improved tactics and ideas and an increased chance of success in the future.

Compare that to running back 20 times in a row right away without sufficient time for reflection and planning. Of course you get wiped another 19 times! Some people might even allege that you are doing things poorly. Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing again an again and expecting different results.

Yes, you are about to say that in between each of your 20 wipes you come up with new ideas...but not nearly as many ideas or as good ideas as if you did it Dygz's way which allows careful consideration and planning. If your ideas were good, you would avoid most of those 19 wipes!

Edit spelling.

Maezriel

tautau wrote: »

One of the benefits of the argument that @Dygz is making is that, when you are working to recover your XP debt from your wipe, you have the opportunity to think and discuss the raid and what caused the wipe. This leads to improved tactics and ideas and an increased chance of success in the future.

Compare that to running back 20 times in a row right away without sufficient time for reflection and planning. Of course you get wiped another 19 times! Some people might even allege that you are doing things poorly. Insanity can be defined as doing the same thing again an again and expecting different results.

Yes, you are about to say that in between each of your 20 wipes you come up with new ideas...but not nearly as many ideas or as good ideas as if you did it Dygz's way which allows careful consideration and planning. If your ideas were good, you would avoid most of those 19 wipes!

Edit spelling.

Have you ever raided at the Mythic level? It's largely already known what happened to cause a wipe and there's plenty of time to discuss minor ideas while rebuffing.

At the end of the day it comes down to people needing to run the boss enough times to memorize what they need to do and if half your day is spent just getting to it then you'll have less time to run it. Even Dark Souls has checkpoints outside of boss rooms for exactly this reason.

mcstackerson

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

Maezriel

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

mcstackerson

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Bangle

mcstackerson wrote: »

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

First off.. giving an opinion based on experience is toxic? Or is it just not agreeing with you that is toxic? Seems to me that the development team has asked opinions repeatedly. That should be a clue they want to hear different views. Alpha/betas are not just technical testing. Features can and do change over the course of development. From everything Ive seen, the developers are intelligent people. I seriously doubt they want nothing but a bunch of rabid yes men.

Im not declaring anything. I am stating a fact that has been true for over 20 years of MMOing. I never said all players wont like it, but in my personal experience the majority of players out there disdain it. Nor did I demand it changes. It is not what will determine whether I decide to devote my time to the game or not.

Maezriel

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?

I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.

Solvryn

From an old school PKer, XP debt is a very light penalty to pay when I was getting used to being dry looted. I suppose this an experience thing.

Not sure about the rest of this thread though, seems XP debt got highjacked.

mcstackerson

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?

I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.

I'm getting that from your wow examples. You give an example of how you play wow, talk about how if you tried to play it that way in ashes it would be too hard.

How am i supposed to be reading this? What am i missing?

Bangle wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

First off.. giving an opinion based on experience is toxic? Or is it just not agreeing with you that is toxic? Seems to me that the development team has asked opinions repeatedly. That should be a clue they want to hear different views. Alpha/betas are not just technical testing. Features can and do change over the course of development. From everything Ive seen, the developers are intelligent people. I seriously doubt they want nothing but a bunch of rabid yes men.

Im not declaring anything. I am stating a fact that has been true for over 20 years of MMOing. I never said all players wont like it, but in my personal experience the majority of players out there disdain it. Nor did I demand it changes. It is not what will determine whether I decide to devote my time to the game or not.

Yes, things can change. I know i don't have any final opinions of it yet.

Giving an opinion is saying, i don't prefer the death penalty and giving reason if you have one.

You declaring how others would behave is not your opinion. You made the declaration that not enough people would play the game if they kept the design you don't prefer. I'm sorry if I misinterpret that but this comes across as a threat and an attempt to manipulate, which is toxic.

Just because something isn't popular, doesn't mean it can't find an audience or even become popular in the future. BRs weren't popular 5 years ago and look at them now.

Maezriel

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?

I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.

I'm getting that from your wow examples. You give an example of how you play wow, talk about how if you tried to play it that way in ashes it would be too hard.

How am i supposed to be reading this? What am i missing?

Literally the rest of my comments. Like, you read "Wow" four comments ago and immediately thought I wanted the game to play like WoW and have shut out everything else I've said.

World of Warcraft is the standard for hardcore raiding w/ FFXIV as a close second. If somebody w/ experience raiding in either game comes looking at Ashes and reads the quote from Steven I posted about there being difficult raiding they're likely to think something far from what the game can actually handle.

This entire derailment started when I mentioned that in WoW it's standard to wipe 20 or more times in a single night (as I've repeatedly stated) this is b/c the mechanics are so tightly tuned that you need to have them memorized and have near robotic reflexes in order to kill Mythic Bosses. @Dygz then started commenting how that's absurd and how XP Debt and respawns are meant to add to the "journey back."

The top guild in the world took 346 attempts to finally down Mythic Jaina in BfA. Three Hundred & Forty Six. And she's not even top 5 for hardest bosses in the game

If you add PvP, xp debt, and running from afar all to this then we're talking about the number of wipes rising to such exponential rates that bosses will be mathematically impossible to clear.

My only argument, my only statement is that you cannot have modern Mythic level raid bosses and PvP. It cannot be done b/c no one will ever clear the raids and as we saw w/ Wildstar games can fail for being too hard. This is multiplied by the fact that AoC wants 40 man raids...doesn't matter how badly you want to stroke your ego for beating an uber hardcore game if you can't even get 40 people to join you b/c the grind is that brutal.

The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights, which are very easy bosses inside of a controlled instance but would be nightmares in the open world surrounded by PvP.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Think about that for a second.

No guild is going to stand back and allow a rival (or potential rival) to get a kill on an encounter that will give that rival/potential rival guild an advantage.

If you can stop them, you will.

That means any such encounter can only realistically be taken on by a guild that wins the surrounding PvP, making it PvP content. Even if the PvP isn't happening while you are taking on the encounter, you need to win the PvP to get the encounter. That makes the encounter a PvP reward, in the same way gear earned in PvP in many other games is a PvP reward.

Even *if* you were able to convince every decent guild to leave you alone to take the encounter on, if the encounters are on par in terms of difficulty as encounters in other games, it won't take a guild attacking you to render the encounter actually impossible, it will take just a single player attacking your tank or a key healer.

This means that the notion of achieving an attempt on such an encounter via "diplomacy" would require that diplomacy to be undertaken with every player, rather than every guild.

I've never seen a PvP game where every guild on a server gets behind a proposal, let alone one where every player gets behind it.

Now, I'm not sitting here saying "this is what top end content in Ashes will be", because there are many different possibilities of how it could go. They could make it difficult, at which point it becomes a PvP reward (you need to clear all rivals in order to have a shot at the encounter). They could make it easier in which case it becomes a race to get there first (first to get there will get the kill). They could make it in between in which case it becomes PvP content.

However, absolutely none of the possibilities of how it could go match up to Stevens comments that were quoted above in this thread.

That is the issue.

mcstackerson

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?

I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.

I'm getting that from your wow examples. You give an example of how you play wow, talk about how if you tried to play it that way in ashes it would be too hard.

How am i supposed to be reading this? What am i missing?

Literally the rest of my comments. Like, you read "Wow" four comments ago and immediately thought I wanted the game to play like WoW and have shut out everything else I've said.

World of Warcraft is the standard for hardcore raiding w/ FFXIV as a close second. If somebody w/ experience raiding in either game comes looking at Ashes and reads the quote from Steven I posted about there being difficult raiding they're likely to think something far from what the game can actually handle.

This entire derailment started when I mentioned that in WoW it's standard to wipe 20 or more times in a single night (as I've repeatedly stated) this is b/c the mechanics are so tightly tuned that you need to have them memorized and have near robotic reflexes in order to kill Mythic Bosses. @Dygz then started commenting how that's absurd and how XP Debt and respawns are meant to add to the "journey back."

The top guild in the world took 346 attempts to finally down Mythic Jaina in BfA. Three Hundred & Forty Six. And she's not even top 5 for hardest bosses in the game

If you add PvP, xp debt, and running from afar all to this then we're talking about the number of wipes rising to such exponential rates that bosses will be mathematically impossible to clear.

My only argument, my only statement is that you cannot have modern Mythic level raid bosses and PvP. It cannot be done b/c no one will ever clear the raids and as we saw w/ Wildstar games can fail for being too hard. This is multiplied by the fact that AoC wants 40 man raids...doesn't matter how badly you want to stroke your ego for beating an uber hardcore game if you can't even get 40 people to join you b/c the grind is that brutal.

The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights, which are very easy bosses inside of a controlled instance but would be nightmares in the open world surrounded by PvP.

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

As for stevens comment, i think it still stands. Yes, he said that but the information about the death penalty and presence of pvp has always been available. He has always been very stern about the best gear coming from bosses in the open world. It comes across as a little disingenuous to say that people should hear/read that comment and then just assume the game will play like wow when the other information that challenges that assumption is available.

I think a part of steven's comment is worth focusing on:
"It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well"

For starters, I'm going to be stay stubborn and still say yes, they can have that difficult content in the open world, It's just not going to be for everyone but there will be other content for you to do. Whether it's the instanced pve content or easier open world pve content.

I also will still say the death penalty doesn't have a strong effect the number of times you can attempt a boss at one time but doesn't necessarily increase the number of wipes. You might have to do a boss over a larger period of time but that doesn't mean you will be wiping more because of the death penalty. Since it's in the open world, you are also able to run away from the boss to do a reset instead of everyone having to die.

Lastly, do you think you are really being fair? You say that because steven said that comment, he miss lead you. So does that mean, that in that comment, he needed to mention every aspect of the game that would be different to what a wow/ff14 player would expect even though he has mentioned this in the past? Whenever he brings up high end pve, does he need to mention how it is different to wow in every way? Can he not talk about a pve boss without mentioning what happens if it kills you and that it's in the open world? Do you think that is reasonable?

What about the fact that a lot of gear won't be bind of pickup? Does he also need to mention that everytime he talks about a raid boss?

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

Honestly, the only reply I can think of is somewhat uncharacteristic of me;
lol no.

To expand a little, top end raiding like that is not as much about just a few item upgrades - it is about player ability. When you pull an encounter, you can tell after the first wipe if you are lacking in gear or not. People think that games like WoW have no need for player ability (myself included - in relation to WoW when compared to other games), but on raids, this is not the case.

It isn't just your ability with your class, it is your ability to do what is needed - what ever is needed.

Hell, I remember one encounter in which a portion of the raid was literally required to use instruments to play a song.

People that don't raid top end content will never understand top end content. I am including Steven in this.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

Honestly, the only reply I can think of is somewhat uncharacteristic of me;
lol no.

But we all know wow mythics are too easy for you so i doubt you would wipe on them so many times.

Noaani

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

Honestly, the only reply I can think of is somewhat uncharacteristic of me;
lol no.

But we all know wow mythics are too easy for you so i doubt you would wipe on them so many times.

I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I have never been involved in a mythic raid in WoW where the guild had not already killed the encounter. This is largely due to me personally never having had a WoW account, and thus never having actually joined a guild myself.

All WoW raids I have been involved in (which have included a good number of mythic kills) were as me helping out a guild on content they were already familiar with.

So yeah, I guess you could say that I don't wipe as many times as top end guilds, if you wanted to look at it that way.

mcstackerson

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

Honestly, the only reply I can think of is somewhat uncharacteristic of me;
lol no.

But we all know wow mythics are too easy for you so i doubt you would wipe on them so many times.

I'm not sure where you got that idea.

I have never been involved in a mythic raid in WoW where the guild had not already killed the encounter. This is largely due to me personally never having had a WoW account, and thus never having actually joined a guild myself.

All WoW raids I have been involved in (which have included a good number of mythic kills) were as me helping out a guild on content they were already familiar with.

So yeah, I guess you could say that I don't wipe as many times as top end guilds, if you wanted to look at it that way.

I'm probably thinking about times you insult wow's combat. My B but good job admitting to not knowing what you are talking about.

To expand on what i was saying, player gear still helps as you are able to finish phases and the whole encounter faster as well as your class being able to perform better in general. Yes, you still have to figure out mechanics but gear gives you wiggle room.

Only reason i ask is because i wonder how much average number of attempts differs from world first numbers. That said, i think my core argument still stands.

Maezriel

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Maezriel wrote: »

When people hear Steven say:

"There will be some in-depth raiding that has multiple stages that will be extremely difficult and... It would definitely be in the single digits of population that will be capable of defeating certain content... It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well... There should be a tiered level of content that players can constantly strive to accomplish. If there is no ladder of progression and everything is flat and all content can be experienced, then there is no drive to excel."

They get all hyped up and if they have experience raiding in WoW or FFXIV then they can have a very different view on what constitutes difficult. I would honestly be surprised if the percentage of WoW's playerbase that completes Mythic Raids hit double digits...and that's w/o World PvP and running all the way back from town.

That's why I think it's important for people to temper expectations so they don't go hyping themselves up for something the game can't physically support.

This comment from Steven is why many players first started looking at the game.

What Ashes will end up with is raid content that only a single digit percentage of the population ever kill not because of it's inherent difficulty, but because of it's rarity. It will be the people that win the race/PvP to the encounter that get the kill, not the people that are best at PvE that get the kill.

As such, since it is PvP that will determine the outcome of these encounters, these encounters are PvP content as far as I am concerned.

This may well turn in to an anti-trust thing (as has been the case with a few other games over the last few years) if Intrepid don't start actually talking clearly about what it is they want their top end PvE content to be.

I mean, right now, with what statements Intrepid have put out there and have not gone to any lengths to retract, there are many gamers that could give this game a casual glance and expect it to have a WoW/FFXIV style raid game. If the game launches as I suspect it will (with an Archeage/BDO style "raid" game), then those people could well feel they were lied to in marketing - based on comments like the above.

The difference between what we have been told and what I personally expect to be launched at this point is about as great a difference as what people felt they were told about No Mans Sky and what eventually launched.

When I first looked at the game, I saw the node system, death penalty, and pvp flagging system and got excited.

Ok, what statement have they said that you think doesn't accurately reflect how things are?
Based off your perception of how you think their raids will turn out, how do you think they should describe it to not deceive people?

They have been clear about the death penalty and open world nature of the game from the beginning. You seem to think these elements need to change which would mean the intrepid would going back on what they have said. What happens then? Is it cool because it's what you wanted?

Also, by you and @Maezriel own emission, the content can be as difficult as you want. You both just decide that it would be too difficult once other aspects of the game get added in, therefore shouldn't be a thing. You guys contradicting yourselves.

Intrepid cannot put bosses in AoC that in instanced content would take 300+ wipes to kill b/c the inclusion of open world PvP would make them impossible to beat. That would be bad game design.

That's not a contradiction, it's a very clear statement.

Let's be honest, Intrepid has not always had the best track record w/ clear, concise, communication. There's nothing malicious there...Steven is just giddy and excited to geek out about his project.

You know how Steven constantly repeats not to buy Alpha testing unless you're strictly looking for a true Alpha experience? Well it wouldn't hurt for him to come right out and say that AoC won't be the game for you if you're coming to it w/ the intent to experience progression raiding like you would in WoW or FF. Intrepid probably won't though b/c they don't really gain anything by it...kind of like how they consistently say the game is PvX and whereas that might be technically true everyone who's followed this game longer than a week knows at it's heart it's a PvP game.

No, they can, by your own emission, they can. Just because you think it's bad design doesn't mean they can't.

He has said that the game will not be for everyone with most recent being the mmorpg subreddit ama. Just because someone likes raiding in themepark games doesn't mean they won't find the way ashes plays enjoyable. We don't have the game yet so making assertions on what people will enjoy is pointless.

This game is only a pvp game to you because it's not a pve game. Pve is required to advance in this game and getting resources.

@Noaani you aren't supposed to kill a pve encounter while pvp is present. Just because pvp can be present doesn't mean it will always be. It is something you will have to sort out with the others on your server.

Bangle wrote: »

I get it, it is a ego boost to toss around the badge of honor "I play only the most hardcore MMO." Fact is, the game isnt just yours. You cant have a MMO with just a handful of players. Any open world PvP based MMO already has an inherent flaw that they have to overcome (and its my hope they are able to out design that flaw.) Why throw up more obstacles that add nothing to the game.

The obstacle does add something. Just like what you mentioned, it adds some prestige. You get that extra feeling of accomplishment for completing something that is difficult. It's also a soft way to push people to engage with other people and systems. Playing with others decreases your chance to die. You also want to spend money on consumables as using a consumable is cheaper then paying the death penalty.

You seem to agree that there should be some punishment for death but have drawn a line that this is too far.

These were features that have been mentioned from the beginning. You are coming in to a game and saying it has to change because you declare that others won't like it. I'm sorry for being antagonistic but when framed like that, do you not see yourself as being toxic?

My favorite part of this is where you blatantly ignore the actual arguments presented and then just say we're contradicting ourselves while stubbornly refusing to accept that if Intrepid makes the game too difficult then that goes beyond "not for everyone" and straight into "bad game design."

I have provided examples of past games, I've clearly explained exactly where my experience is I'm coming from, I can't paint a clearer picture to crack through your stubborn denial of fact.

I'm happy to continue this discussion, but you have to bring more than literally nothing to refute that adding Mythic level bosses into a PvP battleground ON TOP OF XP debt, travel, and Corruption wouldn't cause the game to be so hard it fails just like others have.

Yes, I was being lazy and just pointing out that the possibility is there but I also don't put a lot of stock in your declaration of it being too hard. I agree with dgyz in that the penalty doesn't make things harder, just reduces the number of attempts you can do at one time. If it takes the same amount of time but over a larger time period, I'm not sure if consider that harder.

I'm sorry if i missed it but i haven't seen you provide past examples, i just see hypotheticals. You have said that mythic wow content would be "too hard" because you can't play it the exact same way you would in wow.

I can also continue this discussion and talk about how pve focused gameplay might look like but it will be theorcrafty and at the end of it, I don't think you will like the answer as this game isn't going to play the same as wow which seems to be what you want.

If you want, i will be in the discord in roughly 1.5-2 hours if you want to talk about this.

Where do you keep getting this idea that I want the game to play like WoW?

I don't want the game to play like WoW I want people to have realistic expectations for the game.

I'm getting that from your wow examples. You give an example of how you play wow, talk about how if you tried to play it that way in ashes it would be too hard.

How am i supposed to be reading this? What am i missing?

Literally the rest of my comments. Like, you read "Wow" four comments ago and immediately thought I wanted the game to play like WoW and have shut out everything else I've said.

World of Warcraft is the standard for hardcore raiding w/ FFXIV as a close second. If somebody w/ experience raiding in either game comes looking at Ashes and reads the quote from Steven I posted about there being difficult raiding they're likely to think something far from what the game can actually handle.

This entire derailment started when I mentioned that in WoW it's standard to wipe 20 or more times in a single night (as I've repeatedly stated) this is b/c the mechanics are so tightly tuned that you need to have them memorized and have near robotic reflexes in order to kill Mythic Bosses. @Dygz then started commenting how that's absurd and how XP Debt and respawns are meant to add to the "journey back."

The top guild in the world took 346 attempts to finally down Mythic Jaina in BfA. Three Hundred & Forty Six. And she's not even top 5 for hardest bosses in the game

If you add PvP, xp debt, and running from afar all to this then we're talking about the number of wipes rising to such exponential rates that bosses will be mathematically impossible to clear.

My only argument, my only statement is that you cannot have modern Mythic level raid bosses and PvP. It cannot be done b/c no one will ever clear the raids and as we saw w/ Wildstar games can fail for being too hard. This is multiplied by the fact that AoC wants 40 man raids...doesn't matter how badly you want to stroke your ego for beating an uber hardcore game if you can't even get 40 people to join you b/c the grind is that brutal.

The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights, which are very easy bosses inside of a controlled instance but would be nightmares in the open world surrounded by PvP.

Ok, cool. One question with those wipe stats is how much did gear play a role in them? Would they have wiped as much if they had more time to farm gear in the instance?

For the absolute top players a few pieces makes a notable difference, for most it's raw mechanics holding them back and remember, that 350+ clear was for the absolute best many can take 500+ deep into the season (so when their characters have better gear) in order to clear those bosses

As for stevens comment, i think it still stands. Yes, he said that but the information about the death penalty and presence of pvp has always been available. He has always been very stern about the best gear coming from bosses in the open world. It comes across as a little disingenuous to say that people should hear/read that comment and then just assume the game will play like wow when the other information that challenges that assumption is available.

I think a part of steven's comment is worth focusing on:
"It doesn't mean that there won't be content available for the larger percentages as well"

For starters, I'm going to be stay stubborn and still say yes, they can have that difficult content in the open world, It's just not going to be for everyone but there will be other content for you to do. Whether it's the instanced pve content or easier open world pve content.

There's "not for everyone" which top tier raiding definitely fits and then there's "so difficult it literally can't be done." I strongly doubt that 10% of WoW's raiders clear Mythic content by the time the next patch rolls around then add PvP on top of that.

You've gone beyond stubborn and are screaming towards denial of basic math.

I also will still say the death penalty doesn't have a strong effect the number of times you can attempt a boss at one time but doesn't necessarily increase the number of wipes. You might have to do a boss over a larger period of time but that doesn't mean you will be wiping more because of the death penalty. Since it's in the open world, you are also able to run away from the boss to do a reset instead of everyone having to die.

You're able to reset in WoW as well, attempts doesn't mean full wipes. However, I'd be astonished if guilds allowed you to reset w/o coming in and clearing you out while you're licking your wounds.

@Noaani is 100% right about how PvP is in these types of games.

Lastly, do you think you are really being fair? You say that because steven said that comment, he miss lead you. So does that mean, that in that comment, he needed to mention every aspect of the game that would be different to what a wow/ff14 player would expect even though he has mentioned this in the past? Whenever he brings up high end pve, does he need to mention how it is different to wow in every way? Can he not talk about a pve boss without mentioning what happens if it kills you and that it's in the open world? Do you think that is reasonable?

I didn't say he mislead anyone. There's room for interpretation b/c what's difficult for someone used to this style of game is incredibly different from what someone w/ Mythic raiding experience would consider difficult.

But dude I'm tired of this odd derailment.

The only actual argument here is just how difficult raid bosses can be before it becomes degenerate and NO ONE has provided a shred of an argument w/ any actual examples to show that you can have a boss as hard as the ones found in modern Raid focused games on top of AoC's PvP systems.

So in an attempt to get back to @truelyyy's original discussion. Do I think XP Debt at max level is a bad idea?No, I fully agree that it's an excellent way to get people out into the world and explore other types of content.

Is there anything inherently wrong w/ wiping on a boss and needing to go grind off that debt? No.

Do I think the bosses in AoC will be remotely on the level as those found in WoW/FF? Hell no...b/c they'd be physically impossible to clear thus no one would ever raid and an entire pillar of the game would be utterly dead.

Dygz

Maezriel wrote: »

This entire derailment started when I mentioned that in WoW it's standard to wipe 20 or more times in a single night (as I've repeatedly stated) this is b/c the mechanics are so tightly tuned that you need to have them memorized and have near robotic reflexes in order to kill Mythic Bosses. @Dygz then started commenting how that's absurd and how XP Debt and respawns are meant to add to the "journey back."

Uh. No.
I didn't say anything about not be able to something "in a single night". That's not my concept so I dunno why attribute that me.
While I did not initially state 20+ times "in a row", I later clarified I meant in a row.
I also said nothing about respawns being meant to add to the journey back.
I said that the purpose of XP debt is to provide negative consequences for being defeated numerous times (which is what would happen if you were actually defeated by a Dragon) to cause those characters retreat, re-gear or repair gear, and return later. Which is also what survivors defeated by a Dragon would do. That's the kind of thing we should expect to see in an RPG. Rather than people attacking a boss 20+ times until they succeed with no negative consequences.
And you now say you fully agree that it's an excellent way to get people out into the world and explore other types of content.
So... seems like you didn't actually disagree with my point.

Maezriel wrote: »

If you add PvP, xp debt, and running from afar all to this then we're talking about the number of wipes rising to such exponential rates that bosses will be mathematically impossible to clear.

That is a hyperbolic assertion with woefully insufficient support.
It will take longer to clear. And it might require the help of other people outside of the expected raid group.
But...the primary reason to kill the Winter Dragon is to end the perpetual winter that is devastating the region, so... whatever it takes to kill it. And it will be killed eventually.
That elitist, top raid guild might not be able to do it alone - and that's OK.

Maezriel wrote: »

My only argument, my only statement is that you cannot have modern Mythic level raid bosses and PvP. It cannot be done b/c no one will ever clear the raids and as we saw w/ Wildstar games can fail for being too hard. This is multiplied by the fact that AoC wants 40 man raids...doesn't matter how badly you want to stroke your ego for beating an uber hardcore game if you can't even get 40 people to join you b/c the grind is that brutal.

Ashes is not a game that you beat.

Maezriel wrote: »

The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights, which are very easy bosses inside of a controlled instance but would be nightmares in the open world surrounded by PvP.

That's a bold, unsubstantiated claim.
We shall see how accurate that is when we actually get in to play.
XP Debt most likely means that it will take longer to kill a boss, clear a Dungeon and clear a Raid.
And it will not be guaranteed that those same elitist, top-end raid groups will consistently do all of that stuff on their own.
Some people assume that open-world raiding means that the bosses will be contested via PvP, but there will also be times that defeating the boss means cooperating with the random groups that appear to also defeat that boss.

Maezriel

You know what @Dygz I had a massive reply to all your points but honestly I provided examples of games that have failed for being too hard, hardcore games that have built in checkpoints and why, numbers backing just how hard Mythic raiding is in WoW and explained that FFXIV is right behind it all while coming from years of raid experience and all you've given is "No, your claims are unsubstantiated" w/ absolutely nothing backing your thoughts.

The irony is so thick I could actually weld into a gauntlet and facepalm myself black and blue.

Dygz

1: I don't agree that Wildstar failed because it was too hard.
2: XP Debt on raids does not make raids hard, it does mean it will take longer to clear raids.
3: My claim is that Ashes Dungeons and Raids are designed to have XP debt. And I have stated why the devs want them to have XP debt. That's substantiated by the wiki and numerous vids and interviews.
4: Your claim is that XP Debt is: "The only way raiding works in AoC is to either remove the majority of death penalties from raid fights to allow for more mechanically challenging bosses or to bring raid bosses down to Onyxia/Ragnaros level fights". That assertion cannot be substantiated until we play the game, so... we wait to play the game to see how accurate your claim is. No irony involved there.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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