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Concern about classes with no self heal
McShave
Member
I have a concern about non-healing archetypes that have no self heal (like tank and mage in current alpha). Also, I am thinking of primary archetypes, before they get their second archetype, which they could always go secondary cleric if they need self heals.
If non-healing archetypes have self heals, it can make 1v1 or small group pvp battles much longer, boring, and frustrating. Also, archetypes would start to feel a bit same-y and healing archetypes would feel less important, and almost irrelevant to some extent.
But if they have no self heals, these archetypes would struggle at solo play. You can't party up with a cleric all the time, so I feel each archetype needs some sort of sustainability. As the game is now, they would need many potions (expensive), or wait after each combat for health to regen (boring).
As I don't actually have access to the Alpha-1, there may already be a solution that I am not aware of. But if this is an issue, I don't know what the solution here should be. I played a warrior in classic wow, and it was tough in the early levels. I had to bandage or eat food in between each fight, and it was extremely dull. But I am against every archetype having some sort of self heal, as this would lead to lack of class identity.
Any thought, opinions, or suggestions?
If non-healing archetypes have self heals, it can make 1v1 or small group pvp battles much longer, boring, and frustrating. Also, archetypes would start to feel a bit same-y and healing archetypes would feel less important, and almost irrelevant to some extent.
But if they have no self heals, these archetypes would struggle at solo play. You can't party up with a cleric all the time, so I feel each archetype needs some sort of sustainability. As the game is now, they would need many potions (expensive), or wait after each combat for health to regen (boring).
As I don't actually have access to the Alpha-1, there may already be a solution that I am not aware of. But if this is an issue, I don't know what the solution here should be. I played a warrior in classic wow, and it was tough in the early levels. I had to bandage or eat food in between each fight, and it was extremely dull. But I am against every archetype having some sort of self heal, as this would lead to lack of class identity.
Any thought, opinions, or suggestions?
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The difficulty comes when you make a mistake and end up under attack after battle 1, since you cannot currently sheath your weapon consistently under that condition.
You know, I did forget to consider this is an open world PvP game, so you always have to be careful of the area you're in. This sounds reasonable as a solution. Maybe there can be a food buff to increase this or something.
I usually play mage and there are ways to get around this. Even in classic WoW. I would rather have class identity and need to bandage or eat/drink every few battles then hack and slash through big groups of mobs as I smash my face over and over against the keyboard like BDO.
Tanks have Damage Mitigation, so should be fine. Mages should have high DPS which should compensate a bit for low health, but...
If you're really concerned about it, choose Passive skills, like Max Health. And choose armor that will maximize Damage Mitigation and Evasion.
And/or make some friends with characters who will heal you so that you frequently are able to at least duo with them.
In the Alpha, my Cleric typically duos with a Tank.
I'm not saying this is a solution or isn't one, but right now it does not seem like a pain point. I am a Cleric though, so all I can offer personally is that I don't heal using skills, between harder solo battles (because Cleric runs out of mana doing this instead, and then still has to stop to regenerate the Mana). My group's non-Cleric members seem to approach this by moving to safer areas on their path. Dungeons are harder to do this with.
I find selfhealing in all classes poor design.
I prefer it when it is a function locked for types like healers paladins summoners. Not archers fighters rogues etc etc....
And remember, if a game doesnt give selfhealing for all classes, it is only reasonable that the combat is created based on that fact.
It's crazy to take eso as an example, with all the self healing everyone has access to, remove all the selfhealing in order to simulate the AoC situation, and judge it as "not working".
This. Honestly I would be very surprised if tanks don't get one. Remember you are only see a fraction of combat and combat isn't even remotely close to done so there may be other things that compensate for this that we have no idea of yet.
That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even death may die.
I am also hopeful that support options will be prominent at release as well. Maybe speccing into the Dual Role of Tank/Bard allows for a "shout" type build that gives buffs, with these buffs actually being impactful instead of a gimmick. Basically, reinforcing that the meta is not just holy trinity but also includes support, as it should.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Potions
As entertaining as I find the notion of "potion launchers", I don't know how practical these would be. As long as there was a fair-length cooldown on using Healing potions in combat, though, then we may not necessarily need each class to have a self-heal.
Tanks in many games often have some mechanic to convert damage to health-gain for a few seconds, and nearly all games give brief damage-mitigation or even straight up damage-evasion as defensive cooldowns, but we still don't know entirely a lot about the abilities-to-be.
At this time, it would appear that there will be a LOT of Clerics and Cleric/Other-Class combos for heals, in AoC.
(Cleric and Summoner will have some self-heals, of course. Possibly Bard also.)
But, expect there to be self-heal Racial, Religious, Social Org and Node augments as well as potions and scrolls.
And the real problem is not "self healing" but "being able to clean 100 mobs at the same rate"
Personally, the out of combat regen is fine. i did play mage i didn't feel a matter with "big break" like was needed in wow vanilla... which made it "more hardcore" but also "more boring'
I didnt take the life-mana steal skill also.
Don't think there will be problem to not have selfhealing in our character
Currently, Drain Essence steals life and adds it to the Mage's Mana.
But, Mages have Passives for Max Health and Health Regen.
This also helps keep pvp more balanced. The game afterall will be balanced around group play, not solo play.
I like the idea of passive skills to help survivability. +Health and +Health Regen sound like reasonable ways to go about this. This with food buffs, and you might not have to ever stop 👍
That is untrue. If you play a Mage and actually try it out, it heals your health. If you put 2 ranks in the skill, at least. You will see both blue and green numbers (mana and health), and see your health refill.
It is a self-heal currently in Alpha.
Rank 1 is not a self-heal because it only adds to Mana.
Rank 2 is a self-heal because it adds to Mana and Health.
Thanks for the clarification!!
Every game has classes or builds that are better for solo play, and in Ashes that may well simply mean a class or build with some manner of self heals.
Classes without it can just be considered for use when you expect a healer to be present.
It was more a discussion on how to avoid boring gameplay (eating between mobs). But I think we came to a conclusion with out of combat health regen. Thanks for stopping by tho.
I'm not asking for the whole gameplay to be redesigned, i just wanted a little something for the solo players to help in grinding before they get their secondary archetype. Like i said, concern is relieved.
- They're designing this game with group mechanics in mind, not the solo player. Can you kill one or two mobs solo, then take a break to reheal? Yes. Should you be able to roll through a zone and kill a bunch of mobs with little to no significant downtime? NO.
- Combat is still not even close to fully fleshed out, so many more skills/augments will allow for different gameplay, so most of us can only guess what will be coming to each class, though based on Steven's statements, we can assume some things, such as "Not everyone will be able to do everything".
- Class system (lvl 25 secondary class) augments may allow you to get those "heals" you are looking for, but expect them to come with opportunity costs on DPS/Tanking ability.
It's totally fine if the options are limited while you are in combat, which include being chased by a monster or another player. Healing potions for example. You chose to play a class with no healing, on your own, with no group mates to support you. You should know the risks associated with that choice and live (or die) with them.
Out of combat is another matter. It's been a long time since I played a mmo in which the out of combat downtimes were significant. Downtimes were ridiculous in EverQuest, mana regen was slow, health regen even worse. It was already "solo friendly" in that regard in DAoC. I'd say the tricky part is how easy it is become out of combat. One option I think would be interesting would be that the longer you've been out of combat, the faster you regen you health/mana. So if you are chased by people and manage the shake the pursuers off long enough to become out of combat you don't heal to full under 10 seconds. Bandages and some food could speed that a bit.
Good idea, as long as it’s calibrated well. e.g. I’d want to make sure it’s not a bs tactic in pvp events.