Exploiting bugs

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?

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grisu

"Not knowing doesn't protect from punishment"
I don't know if there is an actual phrase for that in english, so rough translation it is.

It's a phrase we use here to shy away from what Genna seems to be advocating/ arguing for. If it seems wrong you should inform yourself first otherwise you will have to deal with the consequences.

There are always things that are punished in one region and just frowned upon in others. It's your own responsibility to understand the local rules.

dphantomtv

I think the biggest rule of thumb in games when dealing with bugs and exploitation is the question: what’s the exploit?

(For a better analogy I’ll use me for reference.)
I was streaming APOC and I found out that you could animation cancel. This was huge as if you did the correct string, you could kill your opponent in a few frames. And with this knowledge I broadcasted it to the world. I let everyone know you could do this trick, that way we’re on even grounds.

However, I also (mistakenly) found the 100 damage sword of haste trick too. Which had something to do with getting the speed boost from the sword and then switching weapons and then you could deal 100 damage. But this knowledge I decided to keep close lipped and submit to IT and wait while not using it.

So yah, that’s my little story thingy. Hope it grants a little insight.

Wandering Mist

@dphantomtv I would be very interested to know what Intrepid say about the things you reported. Please keep us updated on it.

@amuria I don't know, some hidden mechanics have insanely huge consequences. When LoL players found out that you could use the "flash" summoner spell to extend the range of certain abilities it completely changed how the game was played.

amuria

@wanderingmist Even if it completely changes the game it still is a non-permanent feature which can be removed and the original state should return.
Exploits which gain items have a higher weight since their consequences are more difficult to fix.
Of course that is just my view on it.

Edit: removed ","

Wandering Mist

@amuria "the original state should return" should it?

https://kotaku.com/for-a-brief-period-anthems-loot-system-was-much-better-1833203183

Some people would argue against it. At the end of the day though it's up to the devs to decide how their game works, and I personally have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is punishing players without warning, for something that is ultimately the developer's mistake.

amuria

@wanderingmist I think you misunderstood or misread my post.

I didn't say the original state should be returned. What I did say was that if the mechanic is removed (which didn't have an influence on economy etc.) the original state of the game before the mechanic was discovered returns.

The should in that part is because new experiences from the period of the mechanic might lead to new ideas.
Sorry if I wrote that in a confusing way.

Karthos

I don't condone exploiting but I do understand there's a grey area when it comes to it.

For me, there's a difference in gaming between "cheating" and "exploiting". One is breaking game mechanics for gain, while the other is using already broken game mechanics for gain.

One who chests does so willingly and knowingly, with that as the main goal. Where as one who exploits may take advantage of a situation, not fully knowing what they are doing is breaking the rules (but, they carry likely have some idea).

Both should be punished, but I feel perma-bans should be saved for those who chest, rather than those who exploit. With the obvious exception of repeat offenders. This should be handled case by case, and a decision made based on several factors. It's why I abhor blanket, or "Zero Tolerance" policies.

Wandering Mist

@amuria ah I see, that makes a lot more sense now. I have to admit I do like it when a developer takes inspiration from the players, turning unintended bugs into features. It's another reason why punishing players for exploiting the game is (in my opinion) a bad idea.

Atama

grisu wrote: »

"Not knowing doesn't protect from punishment"
I don't know if there is an actual phrase for that in english, so rough translation it is.

Actually, the phrase you want is, “Ignorantia juris non excusat.” That is the original Latin phrase which literally translates to, "ignorance of law excuses no one". That is a legal principle common in many countries. It is also found in the Bible, Leviticus 5:17, "If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible."

In English the phrase is usually said as, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.”

Wandering Mist

@Atama I personally don't believe that statement can be applied here. For one thing, laws in the real world are (for the most part) very specific so it's easy to tell if you are breaking them or not. By contrast, a video game's terms of use can be very vague, particularly when it comes to exploits.

Not only this but the terms of use is worded in such a way that the developers can effectively change the rules whenever they like, no questions asked. The terms of use is so one-sided that it allows the developers complete control over how the game is run.

If the developer suddenly decides that a certain formally accepted behaviour is now unacceptable, they can hand out punishments without warning. The devs can ban accounts, change the gameplay and the rules, and even shut the game down without giving a reason or any notice at all.

Atama

wanderingmist wrote: »

@Atama I personally don't believe that statement can be applied here. For one thing, laws in the real world are (for the most part) very specific so it's easy to tell if you are breaking them or not. By contrast, a video game's terms of use can be very vague, particularly when it comes to exploits.

Not only this but the terms of use is worded in such a way that the developers can effectively change the rules whenever they like, no questions asked. The terms of use is so one-sided that it allows the developers complete control over how the game is run.

If the developer suddenly decides that a certain formally accepted behaviour is now unacceptable, they can hand out punishments without warning. The devs can ban accounts, change the gameplay and the rules, and even shut the game down without giving a reason or any notice at all.

I was literally responding to a post that said they weren’t sure if there was an English version of the phrase. I provided a history of the phrase, going back to Latin and Biblical roots, and discussed how it was used as a legal principle. I also gave the common English phrase. You’re acting like I was saying something about AoC or exploits. I never did.

insomnia

Proberly depends on the bug. But if you do it on purpose

grisu

@atama I never heard the latin one. Very likely that the looser, german phrase I know is based on it.

The more you know.

Twinsen

No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.

Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.

It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.

Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.

Atama

Twinsen wrote: »

Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.

Then I guess there’s no such thing as a reasonable game developer.

Enjoy your future ban, cheater!

Shadow Phoenix

Twinsen wrote: »

No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.

Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.

It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.

Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.

This is either the most inane response I've seen yet to this topic, or a heavy cry for not being banned because you're stating you're going to cheat.

Just because the temptation is there, if you've been warned, you shall (and should) face the consequences. Based on your argument, if you go looting the nearby electronics store just because you can break the front window (stupid owner should have made it break proof, right?) you should not get punished/fined/jailed. Go try that out and let me know how that works for you.

If it's accidental, most developers can tell. If you've been told they know about the bug and you then follow up with it, that is exploiting it (exploiting being getting an advantage not available to all).

My take is:
- If you discover/accidentally trigger the bug, and then report it, they should reward that behavior (either provide an incentive, or only remove half the gain if it was monetary).
- If you discover/accidentally benefit from the bug, but don't report it, then they should remove whatever gains you received.
- If you exploit the bug (either before and/or after it has been reported) you should then face some form of punishment.

Dygz

Depends on how extreme the exploit is and whether the perpetrator(s) know it's considered an exploit.
If it's an obvious or known exploit - expect the devs to lay down the Hammer.

Aerlana

Twinsen wrote: »

No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.

i will begin by the temptation shit...
"Seeing this lady, with her bikini on this beach... it is so tempting"
I stop there but you clearly understand what i want to point out...

1) finding a bug is ok... and no one should be banned for it
2) reproducing it to do a report is also ok. (sometime i found bug, and couldn't reproduce it. later investigation i discovered i forgot one thing...).
Most of time devs don't give a shit if you didnt exploit and the bug gave you just little bonus.

But spamming it is not ok.

OR ... you share your discovery on general forum to allow all other people to profit about it. It is funny how most of time (all of time?) people abusing a bug don't share information to all player... maybe because they want to be the only one getting stronger with it? But in this case, lets speak about "risk and reward" : your reward is getting a big advantage on other players, the risk is the ban.

i was 2nd degree for sure. a bug, you report it, you don't exploit it.

AND if you know it is a bug, i don't care you are a weak mind unable to resist temptation.

yes devs have to correct it as fast as possible. even more when the bug is big. but it is not so easy. and also you won't do an emergency maintenance each time there is a bug people could abuse.

FFXIV list all bug they fix, the list can be long...

cyanideinsanity

Twinsen wrote: »

No. There is no such thing as "exploiting" a bug in a game. If the game has a bug that users can make advantage of it is 100% the developer's fault and it's on them to get rid of this bug as fast as possible. The player is merely playing the game.

Punishing players for making use of something that is part of your game (by definition), it being a bug or not, is always unjust. Even if you do believe you should ban people for this, which is ridiculous, you will never know if the player did it on purpose. There is always the possibility that the player did not realize it was a bug. You WILL ban a lot of completely innocent players.

It's not even fair to punish players that "exploit" a bug after they have been warned. It's still in the game and the temptation is great. Especially when you see other players doing it and getting away with it. It's the equivalent of dropping a 1 million dollar bag in a poor neighborhood with a huge sign that says: "1 MILLION IN CASH HERE. DO NOT TAKE IT. YOU WILL GO TO JAIL". It's too tempting. Honestly, if you don't take care of a bug immediately that has such negative impact on the game, you are asking for it. People want to get ahead in a MMORPG.

Any reasonable game developer would not ban a player for this. It is their own mistake. The best I can think of they can do is take away from their account whatever they got from taking advantage of the bug. That would be the most reasonable. Punishment is not.

If someone happens upon an repeatedly click for effectively infinite xp and actually make us of it they deserve to be banned. Devs being lenient on exploiters leads to wrist slaps for everyone breaking the rules. Just look at RS3. Years ago there was a bug allowing for infinite redemption of an minigame currency for xp. Players abused it and were met with permabans.

Now? You can exploit a bug that allows you to skip to dungeons and head straight to the end bosses and inject tons of money into the game and get a 2 week ban. You don't want the abusers feeling hurt, but what about the legitimate players? Why should they even play if people are effectively free to break the game and suffer no genuine consequence? "its too tempting". Yeah so is botting. Devs should not let bug abusers be free to ruin legitimate players' fun.

Being lenient on punishment just gives people the thought "yeah I could probably get away with it too".

Jxshuwu

Azathoth wrote: »

If it's not a known exploit and players are doing it because they think it is part of the game, they should not be punished. If players are actively exploiting known bugs that speaks to their character/persona more than anything. Any one investigated and found to exploiting bugs, that is asked to stop, but continues to do so should be permabanned.

Cheaters suck and cheat because they don't have real skills.

perma sounds a little on the heavy side, but yes i agree with everything besides that.

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