Exploiting bugs

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?

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Grihm

Wandering Mist wrote: »

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?

If something is exploited for a purpose, then yes.
That means you exploit it as in multiple occasions, not a one timer by accident.

Galux

It's case by case. How clear was it that it was an exploit? How much did it affect the game as a whole (economy, the player experience etc)? And how much was it abused?

In most cases it's pretty clear whether it's intended or not. If you're unsure then just report it, no harm done. If it's an obvious case of exploit abuse then a ban should be in place.

Maezriel

Wandering Mist wrote: »

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?

I think context is important.

Is the game launched and the exploit harming the integrity of it? It's one thing if you accidently stumble upon it and immediately tell the devs, it's another to purposefully profit from it. In the latter case a temp ban w/ increasing punishments for repeated offenses sounds fair.

If we're talking the current speed buff bug; ATM it's really the only reliable way to get from place to place b/c there's not really enough testers or content. Once you've run out of quest (which is pretty easy considering how many of them are broken) you've not got much else to do besides run around to each world boss. In this case I feel it's less cheating b/c literally anyone can do it and it doesn't really hurt anything.

Nerror

During the alphas, go for it and explore the boundaries of the exploit as long as you're reporting it all along the way, and not seriously hurting the testing experience of others and the game in general.

For release, banhammer the shit out of people who exploit. That "philosophy" Twinsen is adhering to is a really messed up take, IMO, and it will seriously hurt the game. Sure, err on the side of caution when it comes to the permabans. However, for the obvious stuff like the current buff-stacking exploit we see in the game currently, where people are zooming around with super high stats: Permaban, no exceptions. Again, this is ok in the alpha test within reason, especially with pvp turned off. For release, insta-permaban IMO.

CROW3

Nerror wrote: »

During the alphas, go for it and explore the boundaries of the exploit as long as you're reporting it all along the way, and not seriously hurting the testing experience of others and the game in general.

For release, banhammer the shit out of people who exploit. That "philosophy" Twinsen is adhering to is a really messed up take, IMO, and it will seriously hurt the game. Sure, err on the side of caution when it comes to the permabans. However, for the obvious stuff like the current buff-stacking exploit we see in the game currently, where people are zooming around with super high stats: Permaban, no exceptions. Again, this is ok in the alpha test within reason, especially with pvp turned off. For release, insta-permaban IMO.

I completely agree, point for point. Best thing you can do is help the devs document exploits for the sake of making the game better.

Taking advantage for some paltry gain earns a permaban. I find it surprising how little some folks value their honor.

daewulf

Wandering Mist wrote: »

This is bound to happen at some point in Ashes and I'm curious to know how the community and Intrepid stands on this. Should players be punished for exploiting bugs or weaknesses in the system?

[OOC]You are questioning if a paying subscribed customer should be punished for discovering and taking advantage of his enviroment? If anyone should be punished it would be the who ever was responisble for not finding and fixing the issue to begin with. [/OOC]
As I explore my enviroment I am fulling prepared to take advantage of what this world will offer.
[OCC]one of the fun things and something that sticks out to me in my gaming career that keeps the memory of a game alive is the little things, like an exploit in the game being found by players and being incorporated in the game... it is actually one of the ways games evolve. For Example...
Starsiege Tribes had an exploit that became a staple of the fast paced game play... No one should be punished for exploiting... it is the Devs job/game to fix bugs and exploits as they arise. They are the world makers. This is why we pay to play... [/OCC]
So sow your seeds of hatred and oppresion but know my name Daewulf and know I that am fiorever watching from the shadows...

[OOC] EDIT; Now Cheaters...the people altering the game via mods and cheats can BURN IN HELL! Unlless the Devs allow modding then it is acceptable and is another way a game can evolve... For example Quake was my first experience making skins and modifying the User Interface aka UI and the enviroment... custom maps and what not. Great memories... any way back to you Fred [/OOC]

Khronus

@Wandering Mist I don't believe the clip you shared is actually an exploitation. I applaud those players for being able to heal through the damage while taking advantage of the ability to spell steal a buff from that mob. This would fall directly on the development team to design the mob/dungeon differently if this was not the original intention for the dungeon.

As for my take on the original question, players should be punished if they KNOW they are exploiting a bug. Assuming the game was launched and this was still a thing, players making a new character just to sell the starting items and trade it to a friend would be an exploitable bug that should result in harsh punishment after being warned (or possibly a short ban along with a verbal warning to stop). Getting to a boss and glitching it into a wall to solo it = ban. Getting under the ground and killing players without them knowing where you are = ban. Glitching through walls in town to go in/out of buildings = warning/punishment. Everything should be looked at case by case.

It's pretty simple to come up with a "fair" method of punishment for players taking advantage of or using bugs to be honest.

@Twinsen your idea of self control is very diminished.

Just realized this is a post from 2019 but I am not about to waste the time spent to write this out haha.

Wandering Mist

@Khronus the WoW Mage example is a tough one, and really it's up to the developers to decide if it's a hidden intended mechanic, or an exploitable bug. The players won't know which one it is until the developers tell them, either with an announcement or when the devs just start banning players for it like we've seen in games like Anthem.

Blizzard in all honesty have had a rocky history with this kind of thing, with lots of variety on how they handle exploits. For example, the Mage example didn't result in any kind of punishments from what I can tell, even though it was shown off at the Mythic Dungeon Invitation tournament. But there have been other occasions where players were punished for similar exploits, like when the Ensidia guild got a 72 hour ban and their world first Lich King 25 HC kill taken from them for exploiting a bug that made the fight a lot easier.

Khronus

@Wandering Mist understandable based on their rocky history of decision making. I can see a thin line between "exploiting" groups of mobs to make getting to a boss faster vs exploiting a boss to make the fight easier. I can accept a player taking advantage of anything that is in the game already (like with that mob that had an ability to steal). I don't see refusing to kill a mob an exploit personally. It is ultimately up to devs of course.

This is where every instance of exploitation should be treated fairly. Did the player think they were legitimately beating the system with a cool technique that nobody has found yet, or were they breaking the system with a bug that an average player would recognize as "not intended". A healthy/positive relationship between Intrepid and its player base should be promoted as often as possible and I firmly believe the transparency will continue as the game is developed further.

Wandering Mist

Khronus wrote: »

@Wandering Mist understandable based on their rocky history of decision making. I can see a thin line between "exploiting" groups of mobs to make getting to a boss faster vs exploiting a boss to make the fight easier. I can accept a player taking advantage of anything that is in the game already (like with that mob that had an ability to steal). I don't see refusing to kill a mob an exploit personally. It is ultimately up to devs of course.

This is where every instance of exploitation should be treated fairly. Did the player think they were legitimately beating the system with a cool technique that nobody has found yet, or were they breaking the system with a bug that an average player would recognize as "not intended". A healthy/positive relationship between Intrepid and its player base should be promoted as often as possible and I firmly believe the transparency will continue as the game is developed further.

In my opinion it is up to the developers to tell the players what is and isn't acceptable or intended. Yes, some things are obvious, like giving yourself infinite money or rare items, but other things, like abusable boss mechanics, aren't so clear.

If a developer, the moment a bug is reported, comes out and says "we are aware of this bug and are working on fixing it. Anyone abusing it will face repercussions", then the players have no excuse for exploiting. As it stands, this rare happens, with developers choosing to go straight to punishments without the communication first. That, to me, is wrong.

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