DPS Meter Megathread

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Tragnar

Galux wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

By that logic we get to removing all human to human interactions - it is just a matter of degree

If you see things in black/white then yes. ufortunately there's way more to things.

it isnt about black/white - i said it is a matter of degree of something that I fundamentally disagree with - which is to limit player tools in order to "remove toxicity"

if we hypothetically remove the possibility of any tracker in order to remove a way of "delivering" toxicity then we can by that logic go after anything that can be used to "deliver" toxicity - including creating pugs (by lfg tools) - removing loose conditions (like loosing items on death, death penalty, difficulty and many others)

Dygz

But, they aren't removing the possibility of any tracker. So, that point is moot.

Tragnar

but that fact isnt relevant to the point i'm making

Tragnar

i'll elaborate just for you @Dygz

The original idea by @Galux was that by removing trackers you remove one way of
"delivering" toxicity - and I fundamentally disagree with that, because "meter toxicity" can only be of one nature - "that player played differently than I wanted him to play" and it doesn't matter if he is mad that he doesnt know how to press buttons or that he played better in the grand scheme of things and sacrificed his personal dps for doing the mechanics or it can be anything that the toxic person dislikes about that guy's performance

Dygz

I know you disagree and I know why you disagree.
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

But, they aren't removing the possibility of any tracker. So, that point is moot.

This post you made is completely irrelevant to the discussion i've had with galux, because the fact they are not removing the possibility of any tracker doesnt support my claim - you can change the fact to its polar opposite and my claim is still the same and free of any influence from that fact

Just because you think that my point is "moot" it doesnt mean you speak truth and not only your personal opinion

Dygz

The only reason your point is moot is because Steven disagrees with you.

Tragnar

Oh my mistake - I didn't know the 11th commandment is that Steven's opinions are undeniable factual truths

Dygz

It's Steven's opinion that counts.

Tragnar

I'm not saying Steven's opinion doesn't count - all I say is that his opinions are not factual truths and I won't refer to them as such

Dygz

Tragnar wrote: »

I'm not saying Steven's opinion doesn't count - all I say is that his opinions are not factual truths and I won't refer to them as such

It's all opinion. And Steven's is the opinion that counts.
You are saying that you disagree with Steven's view. That's fine.
We know you disagree. And we know why you disagree.
Then you said that doesn't mean your point is moot. And I conceded that the only reason your point is moot is because Steven's opinion is the one that counts because he's the one who decides what will be in his game.

You are free to create your own game with the tools and features you prefer.

Aerlana

Galux wrote: »

I never stated it will reduce toxicity, however i do state that it will remove one way of delivering toxicity.

Your problem (and is also mine) is toxicity in MMORPG in any kind, be it from top end player, from lower end player, from people unable to live in community in general.

You fight against parser as a way to fight toxicity, admitting you are not sure it will sove any part of the problem...

So why not directly fight toxicity,

Galux wrote: »

There's so many other factors at play here and it usually isn't just helping. But yet again it depends what content you're referring too.

Many of people with really low efficiency in raid (not all) dislike when it is pointed out.
When i whisp such people to give advice, explain more the fight, sometime i find people eager to learn. Sometime people who don't care, not reading what i say, doing the same shit during the fight, with the same low DPS (or healing, etc). So yes, this second kind of people is totally toxic and deserve only one thing : the kick from the raid. When all try their best to kill the fight, the least you have to do if you underperform is... listening to people who wants to help you. it is just what we call "respect"

What kind of content i speak about ? for me, "hard content" is at least the difficulty of FFXIV savage bosses. the very least. And would be happy to see some encounter as tough as ultimate fights. In WoW it would be like mythic raids fight.
and in such content, you have to be as close as you can of the 100% efficiency of your build and stuff.

Dygz wrote: »

It's Steven's opinion that counts.

Yes, he is the one who makes decision in the end, no one here said anything else.
but not because he thought and maybe still think this that is opinion is made from the reality. All human have bias, and their own experience. I am totally able to consider people considering parser is a bad thing had, by themselves, really bad experience with it. and more than one time. I did saw lot of different guild and PU group, from the best mind to the worst. I know this totally exist, and i spit on those not able to do the minimum decent intellectual work while using parser.
What Steven says is his reality, what he lived what he saw, and it is far different from what i saw and lived. and what i promote around the use of parsers.

If "because steven said this, no more debate needed, no more to speak about it" then, just, we can block people from creating discussion around the game design, and just wait for the devs questions. But i know devs like to know what their playerbase think, even if they disagree, and even if in the end, they change nothing, it is always good to hear what your player base says.

Dygz

I didn't state no more debate is needed.
I alluded to the attempted use of reductio ad absurdum actually being a strawman fallacy.

Tragnar

Dygz wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

I'm not saying Steven's opinion doesn't count - all I say is that his opinions are not factual truths and I won't refer to them as such

It's all opinion. And Steven's is the opinion that counts.
You are saying that you disagree with Steven's view. That's fine.
We know you disagree. And we know why you disagree.
Then you said that doesn't mean your point is moot. And I conceded that the only reason your point is moot is because Steven's opinion is the one that counts because he's the one who decides what will be in his game.

You are free to create your own game with the tools and features you prefer.

Holy shit are you proposing that Steven absolutely ignores player feedback like the current wow devs do?

Why are you requesting for discussion to end when it is being enriched by details of the viewpoints especially between people that did not talk about it previously?

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

I didn't state no more debate is needed.
I alluded to the attempted use of reductio ad absurdum actually being a strawman fallacy.

"your point of vue is moot because steven disagree"

So... what's the point about any discussion if Steven already have a clear opinion ?

Blizzard is in this state from years now, they do what they thing is good without hearing... They end up listening to community because at some point, it is so obvious that they failed than even a blind could see it. but at this time, it is already too late.
And today, people just became bored of speaking to a wall, and... they leave.
WoW killed itself by a simple way : thinking they don't have to speak with and listen the community

but, we are finally out of topic...
i really think Steven should reconsider how he sees parsers, because there is clearly some false statement in it.

Dygz

I don't think I wrote, "your point of view is moot".

Tragnar wrote: "if we hypothetically remove the possibility of any tracker in order to remove a way of 'delivering' toxicity then we can by that logic go after anything that can be used to 'deliver' toxicity"
I replied: "But, they aren't removing the possibility of any tracker. So, that point is moot."
What Tragnar wrote is a strawman fallacy.

Tragnar then wrote: "Just because you think that my point is 'moot' it doesn't mean you speak truth and not only your personal opinion".
And my reply to that is that it's all personal opinion and the only opinion that counts is Steven's because he decides what is and is not in the game.

I haven't said anything about no more debate. That is something you are adding to the discussion.

WoW has killed itself by trying to drag a dead horse for almost 10 years instead of breeding a new horse.
They should have been working on a WoW 2.0 rather than doing a bunch of expansions post-Cataclysm.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

It's all opinion. And Steven's is the opinion that counts.

The problem is, it isn't all opinion.

Opinions are built on a persons understanding of facts. If they have those facts wrong, then their opinion is invalid.

Stevens opinion - as you yourself have reminded us all in this thread - is that he doesn't want combat trackers in the game because he doesn't want them to tell players what they need to do in order to win.

The problem is, combat trackers can't do that.

This means any opinion built on the idea that they can do this is wrong.

It may well be true that Stevens opinion is the opinion that matters, but that doesn't mean his opinion is correct. If it is built on a factually incorrect idea of what a combat tracker can do, then his opinion is wrong.

Even players that do not want a combat tracker should be extremely worried about this - the fact that one person at Intrepid can have such a misconception about something, make a decision about it, and no one else there has the balls to tell him that he has his facts wrong.

It is concerning stuff.

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

WoW has killed itself by trying to drag a dead horse for almost 10 years instead of breeding a new horse.
They should have been working on a WoW 2.0 rather than doing a bunch of expansions post-Cataclysm.

FFXI 2003 = no problem of mass exodus. (2005 in western)... Exist while FFXIV was 2nd biggest MMORPG (and now 1st)
EQ = 20 expansions
FFXIV goes to its 4th xpansion in the end of year, and the next Final Fantasy SE is working on is FFXVI a solo one. Will have probably its spike subscription during this 4th xpac while wow had it during Wotlk, its second xpac.
Runescape 2001, and continue to have a nice living.

And there are other. I hate WoW and FFXIV for many things, and i hate either Yoshida and Ion Hazzikostas. but the incarnated-god Yoshida-san (if i hear some FFXIV fans) while being hypocrit on some subjects and avoid to speak about other subjects (even when they are the top-liked question on live letters), he remains a far more listening dev director than Ion.
Nowadays, any big mistakes from blizzard needs 1 or 2 major patch to be changed. Housing aside, the big mistakes from SE were changed in some few weeks if it was deep in the game life cycle. (like during SB, they tried to change the looting system for raid24... to cancel it in like 3 weeks due to the burning forums)
Because blizzard consider "they know how to do" and never listen community, they do really big mistake... most of them were already spotted and pointed out during beta... and most of those found in beta are not fix until the X.2 or X.3... this is what killed wow. People got bored. they leave

And here comes the problem if "Steven said this, so this will be like this in game, if you dislike, go make your own game" ...
Like said Yoshida about players feedback "if they complain, they still care"

Maybe, about combat tracker, Steven mainly evolved in group of player using a lot boss mods. Which, in many game is a "plugin" in the parser programs. It is the case of ACT in FFXIV for example. (So ingame parser : no plugin => no problem).

Steven is not omniscient, and here his statement is false, the whole message you already copy paste here numerous time is all around anything totally false... far from any reality. in this discussion, this message has 0 value...
Toxicity coming from parsers or "parser creates meta" is already far more valuable argument because YES some kind of toxic players uses parser to be toxic, and the theorycrafters uses parser to discover what could be the game meta the devs did code. what steven said about combat tracker is totally... false.

yes, steven opinion is the one who matter. BUT i think he is an educated man, able to listen to its team and community, to admit where he didnt see all, or had false vision (because of bad experience probably) and change his statement, and so his opinion.

there are other things i disagree with him. but i wont complain, because while i disagree, he says truth, jsut find his way to deal with it is not the best... But at least it is logic. Coherent.

Dygz

LMAO
Not including DPS meters will reduce toxicity and promote more focus away from numbers and onto actual tactics and combat behaviors.
Steven's already seen what he's need to see. And if his team didn't agree with him, he would have listened to them already and included DPS meters in the design.
You won't complain because you've already conceded that personal combat trackers are good enough and Ashes design already includes personal combat trackers.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

And if his team didn't agree with him, he would have listened to them already and included DPS meters in the design.

If his team agreed with him, they wouldn't be assisting in making combat trackers.

As to the rest of your post - tactics can't exist without data, so not allowing access to data can not increase players reliance on tactics.

Steven hasn't seen what he needs to see, as he has almost no experience of games with combat trackers.

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