DPS Meter Megathread

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Vhaeyne

I have a strong feeling that here in about 2-3 years we will see this exact video, but instead of Yoshi-p it is going to be Steven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

The TLDR is that it is Yoshi-p explaining that he really only bans people using meters when it leads to harassment. I would not be surprised if the conversation went the same way point for point. It is only a 6-minute-long video, but in that time expresses both sides of many of the arguments from this thread and then explains why his official stance is "No" to DPS meters, but he is not going to ban people for using them.

To me, it is the most rational and obvious way to handle this sort of situation. I encourage anyone participating in this thread to check it out.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

To me, it is the most rational and obvious way to handle this sort of situation. I encourage anyone participating in this thread to check it out.

He is right that in that game, a built in tracker would be a source for (or tool used in) toxicity - much as it is in WoW.

However, this is a result of the idea that in both games, you don't really need other players as much as you will in Ashes, or do in a game like Archeage.

Once again, this seems to be the crux of the issue. If developers build games where players need others, then they don't need to concern themselves with whether or not players will treat each other badly.

The issue with FFXIV's stance is that if I am in a group with someone, and I see they are not doing well at their role and offer to help them - even if I am not using a combat tracker - they can report me for harassment and the developers would likely ban me when all I wanted to do was help another player out.

While this may (debatably) be the right course for FFXIV, like any other decision in game design, you need to consider all other factors before making the call on what is right for your particular game. In the case of Ashes, the reason why the above may be the right call for FFXIV simply doesn't apply.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

To me, it is the most rational and obvious way to handle this sort of situation. I encourage anyone participating in this thread to check it out.

He is right that in that game, a built in tracker would be a source for 9or tool used in) toxicity - much as it is in WoW.

However, this is a result of the idea that in both games, you don't really need other players as much as you will in Ashes, or do in a game like Archeage.

Once again, this seems to be the crux of the issue. If developers build games where players need others, then they don't need to concern themselves with whether or not players will treat each other badly.

I am somewhat confused with what you are saying here.

Are you saying that you don't need other players as much in WOW or FFXIV?

That aside, it seems like you are saying that it is a self sorting problem that Devs don't need to worry about.
Since players need each other to accomplish things. That I agree with.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

To me, it is the most rational and obvious way to handle this sort of situation. I encourage anyone participating in this thread to check it out.

He is right that in that game, a built in tracker would be a source for 9or tool used in) toxicity - much as it is in WoW.

However, this is a result of the idea that in both games, you don't really need other players as much as you will in Ashes, or do in a game like Archeage.

Once again, this seems to be the crux of the issue. If developers build games where players need others, then they don't need to concern themselves with whether or not players will treat each other badly.

I am somewhat confused with what you are saying here.

Are you saying that you don't need other players as much in WOW or FFXIV?

That aside, it seems like you are saying that it is a self sorting problem that Devs don't need to worry about.
Since players need each other to accomplish things. That I agree with.

In games like WoW and FFXIV you don't need other players - or at least not specific players. You can treat other players like trash all you want (WoW more so), and it will not come back on you at all.

In Ashes, at least as Steven described it, that won't be the case. If you start pissing off the people in your local node cluster, you will have a hard time finding groups.

This simple fact alters player behavior.

So, the more players need those around them in an MMO, the better they will treat those around them. The less they need them, the worse they will treat them.

If you make a game where players are likely to treat those around them fairly well, then you have no need to worry about players misusing tools like combat trackers.

Since the misuse in this regard was the only thing that was talked about as a reason to not want combat trackers in the video above, it should stand to reason that there is no longer any reason in a game where this reason doesn't hold true - which would be a game where players need each other and so treat those around them fairly well.

This is the point I have made in this thread in the past contrasting WoW, Archeage and EQ2. Games (and even specific situations within those games) where players need each other, they treat each other well. When they don't, they treat each other like trash.

Tragnar

In short - FFXIV has systems that allow for rapid replacement of players if needed which isn't going to be possible in ashes

so their solution of having performance evaluation based on a tracker being bannable offense is quite adequate for their game

Dygz

Littlekenny21 wrote: »

I got back in to Guild Wars 2 WvW.
Daredevil is not a meta subclass to be playing with the melee train.
Because of this I always got thrown in the party of rangers even though it can't function there.
DPS meters allowed some commanders to see it wasn't useless and started give me proper parties.

Without DPS meters, people will just follow the meta and instead of being rejected or kicked out of groups for performance, you will be rejected or kicked for not being meta.

Um. You will be thrown into whatever your Primary Archetype is.
We don't need DPS meters to figure that out.

Dygz

@Vhaeyne
Yes that vid says the same thing Steven is saying - just Steven is stronger about the ban for third-party tools.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Vhaeyne
Yes that vid says the same thing Steven is saying - just Steven is stronger about the ban for third-party tools.

If Steven is to take a stronger stance than FFXIV, how exactly is he going to find the people using trackers?

One of the key statements in the linked video was that they have no idea what is on our computers, and have no business in knowing.

Aerlana

[quote="Vhaeyne;c-306439"
*snip*[/quote]

As said by Noaani, the first problem with toxicity helped by parser is the general game design...
For those who didnt play FFXIV, there is a duty finder for nearly ALL content, all except the top hardest boss ("ultimate" fights) was 2 ultimate in stormblood, i think 2 also in Shadowbringer... for 2 years expansions... all other PvE content are duty finder (with a quite well built one for the hard content, where you say if you are learning, or want to go for the kill)

In fact, toxicity is higher in modern MMORPG than "in good old days" because there was many things, and mainly one "server reputation" ... With "megaservers" and DF, it disappeared, allowing people to be the worst jerk without suffering from it (until enough report lead to a ban... but for large part of toxicity. it doesn't happen)

Also, Yoshida knows his game is nothing without PvE competition. he CAN'T fully ban it even if he could.

Dygz wrote: »

Without DPS meters, people will just follow the meta and instead of being rejected or kicked out of groups for performance, you will be rejected or kicked for not being meta.

Um. You will be thrown into whatever your Primary Archetype is.
We don't need DPS meters to figure that out.[/quote]

This is the way you will play Ashes, not the way all HAVE TO play. If some want to play different way, they can, and not even steven can forbid this. Even more, a good RPG (MMO or not) is where you CAN try exotic things, like in a pen&paper RPG, and find some quite good even if it wasn't expected...

Stop saying people "how to play" ... Play what you want, recruit who you want, and let people do what they want (bonus : i will be on European servers, so you won't even have to deal with me pretending doing a good DPS or a decent tanking as sumoner

)

Dygz wrote: »

Yes that vid says the same thing Steven is saying - just Steven is stronger about the ban for third-party tools.

Oh he can be even more focus about his anti-cobmat tracker frenzy... FFXI was released in 2003, and 2005 in western, modding was forbidden, like ACT is (third party program) or modding in FFXIV. and reality ? they can't know who uses act, who mods their characters. . . If steven manage to do what a big company like SE never manage to do in now 18 years...

(SE, who said when they announced PC version for FFXV "go slow on mods guys" ... yes, asking PC gamer to go easy on mods, you are cute Nomura :') )

Dygz

Aerlana wrote: »

This is the way you will play Ashes, not the way all HAVE TO play. If some want to play different way, they can, and not even steven can forbid this. Even more, a good RPG (MMO or not) is where you CAN try exotic things, like in a pen&paper RPG, and find some quite good even if it wasn't expected...

Stop saying people "how to play" ... Play what you want, recruit who you want, and let people do what they want (bonus : i will be on European servers, so you won't even have to deal with me pretending doing a good DPS or a decent tanking as sumoner )

It's the way the game is designed.
People can try to play against the design if they want to.
But, people playing for the meta will assign people based on Primary Archetype.
And, we won't need combat trackers to figure that out.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

People can try to play against the design if they want to.

I mean, it is a sandbox game.

Playing the game in ways it is not explicitly designed is kind of the point.

As you said in another thread...

Dygz wrote: »

I should be able to do anything I like to do.

Seems hypocritical of you again if that is what you think in one situation where you want to do more, but not in a situation where others want to do more.

rikardp98

It's funny how people arguing against combat trackers use the argument that combat trackers will lead to a meta and people won't be able told play what the want, and now it's the opposite xD
"People can try to play against the design if they want to."

Follidus

If you are worried about playing with players that "only care about their own dps" and "don't care about helping the raid," then don't play with those people?

If you are worried about "needing to play only meta builds," why don't you play with people that don't care about that? This game is supposed to be about choices, right?

In reality, not having a basic dps meter means people will be able to sneak their way to not pulling their own weight. I always thought part of the skill/fun of pve is maximizing damage while staying alive + using support skills as needed. If you don't want to make content to that degree of difficulty, then ok, but just say that.

If you're doing a raid and you consistently wipe somewhere around 5-10%, then maybe the fix is improving damage. Or if you're not killing the boss fast enough for improved rewards, basic damage meters help diagnose this problem. If you think your unique support build is worth the dps you're giving up, why would you be afraid of showing the numbers?

Also, you're not arguing in good faith if you think you can "just observe bro" to see who's efficiently dpsing and who isn't. If you want to make fights that aren't about maximizing dps, then make your arguments about that.

Dygz

You don't look to see who is efficiently DPSing.
Successful combat is not just about efficient DPS.

Follidus

Dygz wrote: »

You don't look to see who is efficiently DPSing.
Successful combat is not just about efficient DPS.

It's an added layer of difficulty to do everything else AND efficiently dps

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

You don't look to see who is efficiently DPSing.
Successful combat is not just about efficient DPS.

This is true in 2 situation
1) your dreams
2) game with low difficulty

Buy happy to see now you defend existence of META, you did a step into the real life

Dygz

You don't need the meta, you just need to successfully defeat the challenges.
Sometimes you might not successfully defeat the challenges.
"Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together."
---Steven

Aerlana

Dygz wrote: »

You don't need the meta, you just need to successfully defeat the challenges.
Sometimes you might not successfully defeat the challenges.
"Growing together is a good thing, and that includes failing together as a means to drive for success together."
---Steven

i never said anything against this quote you know. in fact i totally, in this topic, defend this way to see MMORPG.

but, one of your argument against parser is "it creates meta" then, now, you defend meta exist openly.

I know we don't need meta, i never obeyed them. Always played what i liked, even when i was playing endgame. . . (you know, content where is other game all uses combat tracker, but yes combat tracker force people to play meta ... )

At least, admit you simply dislike combat tracker, than using argument you dismantle yourself later v_v

Dygz

It creates a false meta.
There will always be some people striving to find the meta.
Which quote of mine do you think defends a meta?
(Your interpretations of what people said don't have the greatest track record for being accurate.)

Aerlana

the fact you always says "if you take a tank you will be tank, if you take [archetype define in wiki as role DPS] you will be DPS"

You defend a kind of meta,
Rarely the best.
Because it is the one that block the most the people to play what they want. it lower the freedom of each player

and what is "false meta" ? i don't know what it is

There is only 1 absolute meta : can be or not the one define by the wiki, can be or not the one devs are explaining.

There is one, the one which is coded in the game. Most of time it differs slitghtly from what devs are saying, even more in games with strong class identity. the more identity and freedom in building character, the more meta can vary from what devs officially stated. The only way to find it ? have devs giving all exact formula (... so no possible) the best way to get as close as this only one absolute real meta : combat tracker that allow to get as close as possible to what code allow

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