Why is tab target, or the original combat style in MMOs, so alienated now?

I played New World beta this weekend. It's not for me. I hated the combat.

To be frank, I have hated the way combat has been going in MMOs for many years now. I come from Everquest; the tab target games of old. I loved the combat in EQ, but I can understand a need to modernise it.

For me, the combat in SWTOR was fantastic. It felt fluid and engrossing, despite being tab target still.

In recent years the change has happened.

First we got Guild Wars 2; a game that, for me, seemed to be all about jumping around like a bloody kangaroo. ESO wasn't so bad. Wildstar was even worse than GW2.

New World's combat is about as far from my comfort zone as it is possible to get. It was like a bad nightmare for me and as far from the likes of EQ, EQ2 or SWTOR as I believe it is possible to get.

I'm middle aged with the coordination of an blind Elephant with its legs tied together. Tab target combat gave me something I could enjoy and keep up with. I bought an MMO mouse and felt I did well at combat in SWTOR. I had to move on from a button masher to using keyboard/mouse.

I'm glad Ashes is trying to develop a hybrid system, but the one thing that always made me nervous was that Intrepid wanted some form of action combat.

I just feel like MMOs are getting further and further away from something I like and enjoy to something for the skill enabled kids of the 2000s.

I'll continue to have fait in Ashes because the game seems to be endeavouring to offer something aside from combat. I can be an artisan alone. I do want to enjoy some combat though. I remember Vanguard and the ability to be an artisan solely in that game. There was a mix with combat though and you had to go to some dangerous areas to acquire rare items or finding artisan camps.

So, is it a younger generation thing? Are us old farts just out of luck now? Do I have to adapt?

This action combat is not going away, is it?

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mcstackerson

Dygz wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

This comes across as you arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand on where the player's influence ends. You also don't have the same intellect as your character and naturally wouldn't know the best way to use their abilities but that is something player's learn. I don't think you believe that your character should play itself.

Just like how someone who is playing a wizard and actively casting spells, if dodging is a part of a characters identity, I think player should play an active role if using it (if the game allows).

In an RPG, the player knowing the best way to use their abilities does not necessarily make their character better than another character. Some of that is going to be determined by Level and RNG.

If, like in NWO, Wizards have Dodge/Roll/Blink, we should expect to Wizards darting out of the way.
And we should also expect AoEs to mitigate some of that.
If caught by the AOE, we should expect RNG, stats and skill points to also mitigate the damage.

Just because a player has the intellect/knowledge to be a Master at Animal Husbandry, does not mean their Blacksmith will have what it takes to be a Master Blacksmith.

The line between character skill and player skill in RPGs is not arbitrary.
It's going to be a key aspect of the game design. There is wiggle room.
But the more focus there is on player skill rather than character skill - the farther away the game is from being an RPG.

I guess it depends on how you define better but If we have two equal characters, the player who knows how to use their abilities would perform better. A person who knows how to use their character would succeed in combats where someone who doesn't would fail. My point is, the characters are the same and if they controlled themselves, they would perform the same but they won't when controlled by different players.

I don't see why it dodge needs to be rng based in that moment. Sure it can but i don't think the game is no longer an rpg because dodge isn't used as a form of passive progression in that instance. Wow wouldn't suddenly lose it's stats as an rpg if they removed the dodge stat from the game.

Yes, if skills are broken out like that and your character is focused on animal husbandry and not black smithing then your character wouldn't be a master blacksmith. I'm saying a character with deferent intellect/wisdom would make different choices then the person controlling them. In your example, i'm saying that your character might not choose to be a master of animal husbandry because they know they could make more being a blacksmith.

yes, the lines are arbitrary when it comes to stats and what stats are required. Hell, I don't even think rpgs need stats and can still be considered Role playing games.

Noaani

Marcet wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Dreoh wrote: »

That's such an disingenuous statement I don't even know where to start.

You're essentially saying any game without any RNG is shit and there's no way to make a non-RNG game good.

Edit: I'm going to assume you were just being hyperbolic, there's no way anyone could believe that lol

Without come form of chance, every time two players meet each other, they will know for certain who is going to win.

In such a scenario, the person that knows they are not going to win will simply do what they can to avoid the fight completely.

All MMO's need a roughly equal amount of character progression and player skill to be good, but they also need an amount of RNG in there as well.

I honestly can't imagine that anyone could believe otherwise.

No, combat is about skill, not RNG, you can trust your skill and even if the other guy is more powerful than you, it has nothing to do with RNG. You can have % crits and what not, but combat without RNG is possible and good. You won't run cause you don't know if the other player is stronger and you can trust your skill in combat vs a more powerful player.

Noaani wrote: »

You'll note that I did say that skill and progression should be the main factors.

However, RNG does need to be in the mix still.

RocketFarmer

A game such as most RPGs will utilize RNG for their main resolution mechanic.

An RPG can use a non RNG system for resolution. Rock-Paper-Scissors being one of the most basic. It’s also less dependent on skill and can become boring.

More advanced skill-based systems could theoretically be applied. Chess and Go are two examples of simple mechanics games yet very highly involved in skill.

The challenge for an MMO RPG is the speed of the game, the necessary interface and the required decision making. That’s why they tend to lean toward more RNG and less toward pure skill to kind of abstractly emulate combat. But it can be done.

Ashes is going for a hybrid system, and the details are still in work. So unless they revert to a pure tab-targeting style, how much RNG is in play is kind of an open question.

If your definition of RPG is Roll Playing Game instead of Role Playing Game, the sure there’s always an RNG element. There are, however, Role Playing Games that eliminate resolution mechanics and instead opt for a Judge or GM. Now obviously for an MMO RPG that’s something I don’t think they could implement unless there it player judged, like for example a game of tag. Theoretically possible, perhaps, but not likely.

If a simulation, then it is possible to have no RNG elements, but then you are going to need a robust model and engine to implement without a huge performance hit. Just the player inputs to determine the mechanics necessary to perform an action could prove to be a nightmarish endeavor.

Trouble is, however, are we dealing with player skill or character skill? Most MMO RPGs are centered on the character rather than the player. It’s probably why a lot of the attempts to implement action combat in these sorts of games doesn’t fare well.

So far in AoC the action combat just translates to having a reticle to target (which I think they should remove, if we really want a skill-based game) and tab-targeting is pretty much as expected (the fire and forget button spam monkey experience). And they claim the player will be able to select which mode to play in.

You can spend a lot of money developing action combat and not get very far with it, or end up with a hot mess. I don’t think Intrepid has the time and money to implement action combat, and implement it well. Oh, they will implement something they will call action combat, or more likely “hybrid” which is what they’ve been doing all along. It’s doubtful the end product will meet some people’s expectations with regard to action combat.

Azherae

RocketFarmer wrote: »

A game such as most RPGs will utilize RNG for their main resolution mechanic.

An RPG can use a non RNG system for resolution. Rock-Paper-Scissors being one of the most basic. It’s also less dependent on skill and can become boring.

More advanced skill-based systems could theoretically be applied. Chess and Go are two examples of simple mechanics games yet very highly involved in skill.

The challenge for an MMO RPG is the speed of the game, the necessary interface and the required decision making. That’s why they tend to lean toward more RNG and less toward pure skill to kind of abstractly emulate combat. But it can be done.

We can at least get up to 'Chess' level, but if we end up having half-baked philosophical discussions on 'the nature of RNG' then Intrepid's optimal courses of action are basically 'ignore us because we spend all our time on things that don't matter' or 'try to appease based on the complaints' which I can't see going well.

I really hope the next iteration isn't 'Split Body animations added, but RNG increased slightly to match'... the forums would become... ugh...

Dygz

mcstackerson wrote: »

I guess it depends on how you define better but If we have two equal characters, the player who knows how to use their abilities would perform better. A person who knows how to use their character would succeed in combats where someone who doesn't would fail. My point is, the characters are the same and if they controlled themselves, they would perform the same but they won't when controlled by different players.

I don't see why it dodge needs to be rng based in that moment. Sure it can but i don't think the game is no longer an rpg because dodge isn't used as a form of passive progression in that instance. Wow wouldn't suddenly lose it's stats as an rpg if they removed the dodge stat from the game.

Yes, if skills are broken out like that and your character is focused on animal husbandry and not black smithing then your character wouldn't be a master blacksmith. I'm saying a character with different intellect/wisdom would make different choices then the person controlling them. In your example, i'm saying that your character might not choose to be a master of animal husbandry because they know they could make more being a blacksmith.

yes, the lines are arbitrary when it comes to stats and what stats are required. Hell, I don't even think rpgs need stats and can still be considered Role playing games.

It does come down to how one defines better.
When it comes to player knowledge v player knowledge - In an RPG, the player who knows how to build their character should be better than those who don't.
But, it's still ultimately going to be character v character.

Sure, if both the attacker and the defender have the same Dex, we should expect that the characters' Accuracy and Dodge cancel each other out and then we're left with player twitch skill v player twitch skill for the hit.
We then still have to factor in attacker weapon v defender armor. We also have to factor in points the Attacker has in Crit and the Defender has in Damage Mitigation.

"RNG is always going to play a role in Ashes of Creation whether that be in PvP or PvE, but one way to mitigate that is through the action system. The action system is going to be far less sort of dependent on those you know dice rolls and there'll be far more in your own hands. They won't ever completely eliminate that but it's a way for us to sort of reward skilled play versus sort of tactical strategies type play."
---Jeffrey

An "RPG" without RNG and stats is really some other genre of game.
Even LARP includes stats for combat rules.
Without RNG and stats, you are creating something more like an FPS (if we're talking video games, specifically).

CROW3

Witcher 3 has a smooth hybrid action system. I can target a mob to lock my positioning focus, but it doesn't prevent me from hitting other mobs in the path of a slash. There's RNG in that system as well since not all hits that appear to connect actually do dmg. I imagine there is still a ToHit roll w/a modifier in the background that results in a positive hit (w/damage roll) or a miss which would generate something like "glancing blow" or "dodged."

I agree that these underlying 'roll' systems are elemental for RPGs. If I want a game with 100% skill I'll play Insurgency.

TheDarkSorcerer

Tab targeting belongs in mobile games in 2021. Requires 0 skill.

Noaani

TheDarkSorcerer wrote: »

Tab targeting belongs in mobile games in 2021. Requires 0 skill.

You would fail at tab target games.

Mobile devices don't have tab buttons.

CROW3

Noaani wrote: »

Mobile devices don't have tab buttons.

Well, that does explain why it 'requires 0 skill.'

godmilk

I think there is a place for both styles of combat in a modern MMORPG and am excited to see Intrepid's approach to the concept.

I think the main argument I'm seeing against tab targeting is that it's too easy or not dynamic enough, resulting in an unfun combat system. I've also seen, in other threads, discussions around CC types and how some can be unfun because of loss of agency with little counter-play.

What if we explored utilizing the hybrid system to address this issue while allowing implementation of both system types? Why can't abilities like party support/heals be tab targeted? What about damage over time abilities? Could we even have some (not all) basic damage abilities be tab targeted?

What if, on the other side of that coin, we had the more impactful abilities with high damage levels, valuable crowd control, area of affect, etc be abilities that require they be aimed and landed? This promotes counter play through movement/kiting and adds a depth of skill that many of the action style advocates are looking for. I can see this promoting some really fun and engaging team play as you work together to set yourself or your teammates up for these abilities and peel for your teammates under fire.

The focus here is to have basic, bread and butter abilities of the class, be tab targeted and cast quickly and easily (think weaving these in between the usage of aimed "action combat" style abilities) to free the player to focus on the enemy in front of them and counter playing what is coming their way.

I think if balanced and done in a masterful way, you could achieve a harmonious system between both styles that would feel modern, engaging, and leave the player craving the chance to login and get into the world.

ClintHardwood

I like the idea of a hybrid system. There definitely exists a balance of tab target and action gameplay that adds excitement to combat while also raising the skill ceiling for PvPers to reach. While I wouldn't mind playing tab-target only, mostly because I will not be playing AoC for the combat, I would prefer action combat if possible.

Okeydoke

ArcticFoxAD wrote: »

For me, I'm looking for something to move to from eso for pvp so if they go full tab targeting I'm out and sticking to eso. Tab targeting is slow, boring, and lacks skill.

It doesn't lack skill. It lacks an emphasis on skill that YOU care about. Tab target requires skill just like anything else. I was the number 1 pvper on my server in DAOC, number 1 in my class on my server in Warhammer, both tab target games. Was I just God's chosen one? I ran around the pvp areas and God was sitting on my shoulder, having chosen me to be the one, helping me just delete everything I see?

Or was I just better, and more skilled? Having played many tab target games and often being in the top tier skill wise, I can tell you there is a LARGE difference in skill between the top and the bottom tiers of players. There's even a large skill gap between the super top tier 1 percenters and the next tier down of extremely good players.

Never played much WoW, but WoW arena ratings, is that all just random? Everyone's just there tabbing and pressing buttons and the guys at the top of the ratings got there randomly? Or did God choose them too?

I think action, or at the very least hybrid combat is the "future." And we will see it more and more. But tab isn't dead. Ask the millions of wow players. But I'm just responding to some of the ridiculous comments in this thread about tab targeting. And I was the number 1 pvper on my campaign in ESO, Bloodthorn, too, for months, before I gave up emperorship to pass it to a friend.

I don't say any of that to brag. I'm older now and my skills are definitely slipping. I say that to show I see both sides of the issue, I'm good at both tab and hybrid, even very good at fps games. There are merits to both action and tab, pros and cons to both. But anyone saying tab "lacks skill" or "requires no skill" are just wrong, straight up. Tab just puts an emphasis on skills you don't care about as much maybe.

Sorry for the book.

Nerror

Dreoh wrote: »

Nice evasion of the point by focusing on a pedantic argument about GW2 having a single instance of chance. Every single game has some form of RNG, it's such a pedantic argument for you to say "yea well you said no rng so that means absolutely none whatsoever".
I also never said "crit chance doesn't count" anywhere at all lol. Though I do think crit chance is a far lesser deciding factor of combat than dodge/accuracy is.
Sea of Thieves has RNG in it's fishing and ship spawn, does that mean RNG is a core concept of Sea of Thieves?

Chance is a core concept of gambling.

Chance is not a core concept of MMO's.

A core concept is something that is required. Chance is not required for an MMO to be an MMO.

The core concepts of MMO's includes "massively multiplayer" and "player interactivity". Those are two things that define an MMO and a game is not an MMO without. Before you get pedantic again, of course there are a few more core concepts of the genre but those are just examples.

Are you really telling me you are incapable of visualizing how a game can be an MMO without chance-based combat?

And now you are putting words in my mouth and claiming I said things I never said. Perhaps English isn't your first language (it isn't mine) and you're misunderstanding my point?

Of course I can imagine an MMO without chance-based combat. An MMOFPS for example, like Planetside. Nice game and a different genre from Ashes (FPS vs. RPG).

You are leaving out the RPG part. That's really friggin' important. Ashes is specifically an MMORPG, not an MMOFPS or just "an MMO". Is it possible to have an RPG without any dice rolls or chance? Absolutely, it can be purely story based. Is it the norm? Not even close. Chance or dice rolls are at the very core of most RPGs. Ashes is most certainly not purely story-based. That was my point. It fits the genre completely. I also understand you want to change the MMORPG combat standard to be something else, because that is the gameplay you enjoy.

Personally I prefer a bit more randomness than just pure twitch skills. The unreliability adds a little extra chaos and challenge to the fights. The bad or good dice rolls we get in most RPGs add to the overall fun IMO.

Dreoh

@Dygz sorry, that comment was referring to Noanni not you lol. Though I also did not say that all games are RPG's.

@Nerror please show me where I put words in your mouth specifically.

The only reason chance-based mechanics are in any game is because it's a game that is trying to emulate actual combat without having to create actual combat.

If you can create actual combat you have no need for RNG and it's all the better for it.

The Soulsborne series is all games that are stat-based games that don't rely on RNG for combat.
New World is an MMORPG that takes inspiration from the Soulsborne combat system and it works as intended (latency allowing), whether you like it or not.

You know why Oblivion and Skyrim did away with the Morrowind "hit chance" mechanic?
Because it was outdated and frustrating to players.
Who wants to have their attack negated at random for no reason at all? Especially when you put in the mechanical skill to aim correctly and the animation obviously looks like it should have hit.
I've seen people argue they like it because of nostalgia towards rng-based systems, but nostalgia by itself is another weak argument to make for something.

You know what game revolves around chance? Mario Party, because who wins or loses is entirely up to dice rolls and random systems. You could have ended the game in the lead, but then the game randomly decides what "bonus stars" to give, and suddenly you're in last place.
Sure, games with heavy randomization and chance are fun, but taking them seriously is a joke.
Before you get pedantic, Mario Party is obviously an extreme, and minor chance-based mechanics can be implemented in a game without completely making them skill-less, but less chance directly equates to more skill based gameplay.

To relate this back to the thread, Tab-Target and normal rng-based combat systems were created to emulate actual combat because actually creating decent skill-based combat was too complex for computing and servers when RPG games were first being created.
But as computing grew, people are sticklers for nostalgia and relying on what worked before, so they developed new games with those old systems, many times innovating it to be more competent and fair.
Also people in general have a fascination with gambling, so "will this hit/crit or not? ... oooh! yes it did!" is that dopamine rush so many people seek out, with big crit numbers or an "evaded" popping up to even further satisfy your next dopamine fix.

We've reached a point in computing and game development where we can confidently begin shedding the "training wheels" and begin creating actual skill-based mechanical games. New World is our newest foray into that "new world" of gaming.

Is RNG inherently bad? No.
Can games be good with RNG? Yes. Many of my favourite games are even RNG-based games.
Is RNG necessary for good combat? Absolutely not. If you need me to come up with more examples, I absolutely can.

Dygz

You're talking about games in general.
The topic is about RPGs.
American football is a good game, but it is not soccer.
You can have a good game without RNG, but it would be some other type of game than an RPG.

Backgammon is not backgammon without RNG. You could use the board and pieces to create some other game, but it would not be backgammon.
You can have great games like chess and checkers that don't rely on RNG, but they are not backgammon.

Dreoh

Yes, but that was in response to people saying an MMORPG could not be chanceless.
Context matters

Edit: Just like EQ/WoW and others rely in moderate amounts on RNG, New World is an MMORPG (and yes, it is an RPG) that does not rely on RNG nearly at all.

Just like backgammon is a board game that relies on chance, and chess is a board game that relies on skill.

Dygz

Because an MMORPG is an RPG which means it will have RNG.
You can make some other type of game that doesn't have RNG, sure.

Dreoh

Dygz wrote: »

Because an MMORPG is an RPG which means it will have RNG.
You can make some other type of game that doesn't have RNG, sure.

Ok, explain New World.

It's an RPG, whether you like it or not. It has stats, it has stat-based combat. It has stat progression. It has roles to play.

Or is your definition of RPG literally "chance-based game"?

Edit: You're creating an arbitrary rule for "RPG" to quantify never innovating upon the genre and bring it into the modern world.

Dygz

I've already told you that New World is not an RPG. Just as American football is not soccer.
Also, kickball is not soccer and kickball is not baseball.
New World is a hardcore PvP-centric MMO survival game that the devs are trying to tone down so it has greater appeal to MMORPG fans.
It's like taking Pineapple Fanta and adding cola to try to attract more Coke fans. But, that doesn't mean it's going to become Coke.

CROW3

@Dygz - are RPGs Pineapple Fanta or Coke?

It matters. 🤨

RNG and rolls are fundamental to RPGs. If it were twitch skill you’d need some serious martial training. ⚔️

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