Race Representation in a Node's Architecture

Like in any other MMO, some races will be more popular than others. In AoC this will have great repercussions because the number of players of a certain race that are active in a node's zone of influence, will determine that node's architectural style. There are also talks from Intrepid that a node of a certain race will give some kind of benefits to players of that same race. Regardless, the issue remains that certain races will be underrepresented and maybe even completely nonexistent. We might never see a Metropolis of some races.

A solution I would like to suggest to this issue would be to give races a bonus to their representation in a node’s architectural style decision based on the region/biome the node is in.

We know that each race has its starting zone and there are certain biomes that “belong” to certain races. So for example let’s say that we have 40 Dunir dwarves working on a node in their foothills in the northwest and 50 Ren’kai orcs are also working on that node, but the Dunir dwarves get a 50% bonus to their racial representation in that region because those foothills “belong” to their race. The 40 Dunir dwarves would now count as 60 Dunir dwarves and they would win the architectural representation over the 50 Ren’kai orcs.

The numbers would obviously need to be tested.

What are your thoughts on this topic or the proposed solution above?

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Sathrago

CROW3 wrote: »

The racial districting might be interesting... though I get the feeling that Dwarves will be consistently kicked to the sewers or outside entirely.

I looked it up, my only concern with this thread was the Freehold architecture. It appears that Freeholds will take on the architecture for the plans purchased. I'm guessing the architecture plans will reflect the racial architecture of the node / town it was purchased in. If that's the case (again I'm guessing), that will give extra incentive for folks to spread out and explore other nodes so they can have their freehold reflect their desired look and feel.

I believe you misread that part, The architecture plans are most likely the "schematic" or skin you choose for your freehold. Since you can get freehold skins from the monthly donation thing that is the most likely case.

Ah here, This bit "Players are not locked into any particular race for freehold blueprints.[28]"

JustVine

Sathrago wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I doubt they would spread themselves out over 100 Nodes, they would most likely attempt to get at least a Village because there is racial progression via racial quests that would start at the Village stage.

We will be able to filter characters on the server by race, so it will not be at all challenging to find other characters of your race on your server.

It's highly unlikely that a race will not at least have a Village on the server.
The devs will determine if there needs to be prevention for that.

It's unlikely to be in the form of creating multi-racial neighborhoods and/or Mayors choosing the architectural style. The code for that is likely to be to convoluted. Already challenging enough to meet their current design goals.

Just have a setting where the vote system reads me as x race instead of my 'actual.' This adds various potential bugs, but thats the main challenge for it.

I would figure the democratic vote would be easier to implement and contain bug wise, hence me suggesting it first.

You keep saying 'mayor deciding it.' But I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting 'the mayor issues an election on a specific node issue. Citizens of the node vote on the 8 choices. After the vote is concluded the city changes to that architecture style instead on next server maintenance or whatever is most convenient. To issue this vote costs node resources to initiate the rebuild.' Given their intentions for nodes many of the systems for implementing this will already be needed for other intended features.

I don't think they could go that route as players would abuse it to "do all content". Which removes the uniqueness of the different server choices. The best thing they could do is allow for small racial districts within the city where the next three highest race types get a small district in the town.

Hmm. That is an interesting point. But what is the problem of said completionism? At some point they will go through them all and have to actually pick one right? In this model your race still casts a default vote, so different servers would go through them in different orders depending on racial distribution/geography. So I can't think of a reason that necessarily diminishes server uniqueness given each server 'seed' is still unique.

Additionally if it would cost resources to do, there are better things for most nodes to spend resources on like defense and crafting right? It's a priorities thing. Culture is a low priority unless the population actually deeply cares enough to make it a true part of the community identity. I strongly think this type of implementation would deserve a resource cost, possibly a large one.

I don't disagree with racial districts in themselves, but I think it would end up indirectly exposing the cookie cutter feeling that will already be present and need designing around. Still I do find it an interesting solution, just not my first choice due to that problem and the fact that depending on their code structures, might be difficult to accomplish relative to my proposed alternative.

CROW3

Sathrago wrote: »

I believe you misread that part, The architecture plans are most likely the "schematic" or skin you choose for your freehold. Since you can get freehold skins from the monthly donation thing that is the most likely case.

Ah here, This bit "Players are not locked into any particular race for freehold blueprints.[28]"

Yeah, that was ambiguous to me - I read it as "you can buy freehold plans for other racial architecture beyond your character's race." If your interpretation is 'you can buy any racial architecture for you freehold regardless of the racial architecture of the node you purchase it in" - I like it.

Dygz

JustVine wrote: »

We are trying to discuss potential solutions. If you don't want to join the discussion then I will just start ignoring you in this thread.

It's fine to ignore me. Nothing I say prevents discussion. I speak how I speak. If you want to find quotes that invalidate what I've stated feel free to post them.

Again...there can be no "solutions" for a non-existent problem.

We have Freehold skins which should cover over any racial architectural style from the Node.
But, again, players will have incentive to group together enough to have a racial Node because there is racial progression that is only available from an associated racial Node.
And that is part of the intended incentive for PvP conflict which motivates people to Siege a Node.
There is less motivation for that if Nodes can have multi-racial buildings and services constructed.
The proposed concept is counter to many of the Ashes design goals.

JustVine

Retracted.

VmanGman

Unkempt Foliage wrote: »

When I say even spread I don't mean race selection screen, like 11% for each race in your example. I mean that 3-5% for unpopular races are spread out over the 100 nodes. Then 15% popular races are also going to spread out over the 100 nodes.

So an even spread would be 15% of each node for the popular races and 3-5% for the less popular races. That means in every node they are out numbered and will never see a village of that race.

Now that's an extreme example and we won't get an even spread in all the nodes. But the longer the server is up the more and more likely unpopular races get wiped village wise.

You would have make first find enough like minded people, make a race guild, then convince that guild to all work in the same area. Even then it won't be a guarantee if others races move to that area too. And that's a monumental task.

The question is. Are people okay with that direction or should there be some sort prevention for that.

This is exactly what I am explaining and I am not sure why some people are having such a hard time understanding such simple concepts.

And @Dygz you're acting really weird and cringey for a grown man... come on dude.

Dygz wrote: »

I think the least they could do is have separate PvE-Only servers.

Don't mock a very valid topic of discussion with this PvE-server nonsense. The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

mcstackerson

VmanGman wrote: »

The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

Define issue as I don't think we know if that is an issue. Seems just like a situation that people something they can work to change instead of having it handed to them.

VmanGman

mcstackerson wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

Define issue as I don't think we know if that is an issue. Seems just like a situation that people something they can work to change instead of having it handed to them.

It's an issue because not only is it cool to have your race's architecture be represented in nodes, but also because content is tied behind a node's race selection.

It's not a situation where people can just work to make a change as opposed to having it handed to them. That would be the case if all races had equal representation within the player base, but that is simply not the case. If you are trying to say that the few Nikua dwarves on a server need to all come together to just maybe and hopefully get a node past the village stage with their racial architecture, then that is a ridiculous suggestion.

There is a clear issue that some races will not see nodes in their architectural style past certain levels and definitely not at a metropolis level. This could mean that entire questlines, assets, and other content will never be available in the game...

bloodprophet

This is a community issue not an Intrepid issue.
They are building the sandbox putting rules in place and setting us free to explore and build as we choose.
The fact that "some" races may never see a metro is not their problem. This is why they have the seige system. Get your friends together burn it down and build it how you want it.

VmanGman

bloodprophet wrote: »

This is a community issue not an Intrepid issue.
They are building the sandbox putting rules in place and setting us free to explore and build as we choose.
The fact that "some" races may never see a metro is not their problem. This is why they have the seige system. Get your friends together burn it down and build it how you want it.

This is some high-level nonsense. You can say that about anything... You can say that about the PvP system... we don't need corruption. This is a sandbox. Get your friends and stop the griefers. Because that has worked well in all other PvP MMOs that did not have some sort of anti griefing mechanic.

Even if you somehow manage to get all the members of the least represented race together (which would be a great feat), you would still very likely have a hard time overcoming the percentage deficit and some other more popular race would likely still win by the metropolis level. It's simple math...

Instead of spewing nonsense (as proven above), it would be a lot more helpful if you could actually bring negative feedback to the proposed solution.

JustVine

Some people don't like their racial architecture given they are different aspects of self representation and taste. And therefore no matter what they do they are always a vote against their own desire. This is a flaw. Is this Ashes design philosophy?

I was trying to request for something within the base design of the current game. If enough people think making representation increased through districts is against Ashes design principles, and voting for it as a node community with a cost is against Ashes design principles, then here is a way 'simpler' request. Make culture seperate from race at character creation. No reason a kaelar can't be raised by a dunir dominant society

Unkempt Foliage

My main concern was just hoping for a variety of themes for node. But if racial quests are bound to node level its even worse.

I love racial quests. You get to learn more about your factions history and lore. But the problem with locking racial quests to nodes of a certain level is that. Is that it unless you are able to convince a large portion of players to play a race they have no interest in. You won't ever see it.

So even if you burn a city to the ground. It's unlikely the next city to take it's place will be an unpopular race. Just because they don't have enough players to do it.

Now this isn't going to be a problem first few weeks, maybe months, when a sever is still new. But as the server ages it's more likely that the cities of the least popular race will dwindle.

Now it's impossible for new players, or people who missed the quest, to do their racial quests. This will lead to people just abandoning their race and picking race that does have cities up so they can quest. Or worse just getting fed up and leaving the game because they can't play the race they want. Making the problem worse.

JustVine

Unkempt Foliage wrote: »

My main concern was just hoping for a variety of themes for node. But if racial quests are bound to node level its even worse.

I love racial quests. You get to learn more about your factions history and lore. But the problem with locking racial quests to nodes of a certain level is that. Is that it unless you are able to convince a large portion of players to play a race they have no interest in. You won't ever see it.

So even if you burn a city to the ground. It's unlikely the next city to take it's place will be an unpopular race. Just because they don't have enough players to do it.

Now this isn't going to be a problem first few weeks, maybe months, when a sever is still new. But as the server ages it's more likely that the cities of the least popular race will dwindle.

Now it's impossible for new players, or people who missed the quest, to do their racial quests. This will lead to people just abandoning their race and picking race that does have cities up so they can quest. Or worse just getting fed up and leaving the game because they can't play the race they want. Making the problem worse.

Agreed. And, not everyone has friends that play the same race as them. They keep bringing up 'same race will band together.' But that simply is a simplistic view of how life works. What if I am an empyrean who can't stand must of the other empyrean in my area. I can only be a citizen of one node at a time.....

Azherae

It may be selfish, but I don't really see the issue with Metropolis or even City level nodes being predominantly, say, Kaelar or Vaelune.

Obviously I wouldn't want to see every single Metro on every single server being Kaelar, though, and that's a very real possibility (though I won't make any assumptions).

I feel like we should 'aim for a system' where Village and Town level nodes do see some more diversity, but the numbers don't support it easily.

15% Kaelar vs 3% Nikua, for example. Server population... say 6000, though the number matters only in a relative sense (bigger populations do help, though, assuming the players of the unpopular race band together more)

900 Kaelar, 180 Nikua. Let's assume that a coastal node gets even 30% of the server's Nikua to go there, that puts us at 54 players, not bad.

Except that it 'loses to' just 7% of the server's Kaelar drifting in as the Node progresses a bit...

Even if the Nikua then convince another 15% of their population to come help 'preserve their culture' or whatever, that's going to take longer to gather up than the additional 3% of the Kaelar population it takes to offset that.

This would mean that with only 20% of the Kaelar, you could realistically prevent all Nikua themed nodes (10% of the Kaelar living in a node with 45% of the Nikua, do that twice, and assume that the other 10% of the Nikua just stay wherever they are).

My proposition doesn't even come close to solving this. Technically, depending on human nature and the feeling Ashes races give to new players, this could approach 'completely unsolvable'.

Maybe people will solve this by 'joining as a Dunir on the server with the most Dunir already' and the racial stuff will be segregate by server itself, over time, but it would be nice if Intrepid gave us a little something, because of one factor.

It's likely that for a while, definitely at first, the Vassal system will cause a lot of nodes to be locked at Village tier, so it would be good if we got something that allowed us to influence it at least at Village tier for diversity sake if nothing else.

Anyways my point is, saying it can be changed by 'people just getting together and putting in effort' is... an interesting take, as it's one of the few aspects of the game that can't really be changed by coordinated PvP or similar.

Dygz

VmanGman wrote: »

Don't mock a very valid topic of discussion with this PvE-server nonsense. The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

It's not a fact and it's not an issue.
It is your unsubstantiated paranoia.

VmanGman

Dygz wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

Don't mock a very valid topic of discussion with this PvE-server nonsense. The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

It's not a fact and it's not an issue.
It is your unsubstantiated paranoia.

First of all, grow up and stop belittling valid things that people have to say. You're a grown man.

Second of all, if you have any common sense, you would understand that due to how the currently proposed system works, the least popular race will most likely never see a metropolis with their race's architecture, quests, and content. It would take an incredible level of coordination from the entire server to allow the least popular race to be the majority race for a metropolis.

A node gets to a metropolis level because it levels faster than any other node. This means that there are a lot of people being active around that node. Because there is such a great number of people in that area, it is extremely unlikely that the least populated race will be the majority race. If other races didn't help the minority race to bring a node to a metropolis level, then other nodes will beat them to it... so the minority race needs the help of the other races and this is an insane amount of coordination required when the system could have just been designed better.

No matter how much you dislike it, it is a fact that with the current system some races might never see a metropolis based on their race. It is also a fact that this would be an issue because in that case some content would never see the light of day which means that the developers have wasted their time and that the players don't get to see all that the game has to offer.

Please explain how exactly do you plan to coordinate 50,000 people to allow a minority race to possibly get a metropolis and why would that be a reasonable expectation when the whole situation can be resolved with slightly better game design.

bloodprophet

Some races will never see a metro.
I still fail to see how this is a problem that needs an answer.
Even if you allow people to change what culture they add to this WILL still happen.
So what? Why should intrepid waste a bunch of recources chasing down a what if for every possible secnario?
This is one of the big draws for me. The idea that not all content will be available. That things will be in flux and there won't be any static premade cities.
Maybe just let things be and see how it plays out vs trying to control everything.

mcstackerson

VmanGman wrote: »

mcstackerson wrote: »

VmanGman wrote: »

The fact that some races might never see a metropolis for the entire lifespan of the game is an issue... and this issue trickles down to other node levels that might have very limited representation from certain races.

Define issue as I don't think we know if that is an issue. Seems just like a situation that people something they can work to change instead of having it handed to them.

It's not a situation where people can just work to make a change as opposed to having it handed to them. That would be the case if all races had equal representation within the player base, but that is simply not the case. If you are trying to say that the few Nikua dwarves on a server need to all come together to just maybe and hopefully get a node past the village stage with their racial architecture, then that is a ridiculous suggestion.

There is a clear issue that some races will not see nodes in their architectural style past certain levels and definitely not at a metropolis level. This could mean that entire questlines, assets, and other content will never be available in the game...

I disagree. A group of players who are coordinated have an advantage over the people who are not. Being coordinated also allows them to pick a location so if they need to, they can go to a less popular location. If the location is something people pass through for a few quests then a coordinated group should have a huge advantage if they grind in the area. Coordinating is not a few people. If there really are so few dwarfs to work with then your idea probably wouldn't work either. If your idea of increase contribution by 50% would help this happen naturally then dwarfs doubling there numbers in one area should have a greater effect.

If the questlines being locked behind node advancement is so important, then i'd rather nerf it or not have it so strictly locked.

To me, what would be cool, is if the issue mention does happen and a guild of dwarfs ban together to make this happen. Having this just given to them would be meaningless to me.

Azherae

bloodprophet wrote: »

Some races will never see a metro.
I still fail to see how this is a problem that needs an answer.
Even if you allow people to change what culture they add to this WILL still happen.
So what? Why should intrepid waste a bunch of recources chasing down a what if for every possible secnario?
This is one of the big draws for me. The idea that not all content will be available. That things will be in flux and there won't be any static premade cities.
Maybe just let things be and see how it plays out vs trying to control everything.

Let's assume this is valid, (and seriously, I agree with you). Do you also object to the idea that a player might not want the architecture of their node to be influenced by their race?

Getting caught up in 'which races can get what cities', I can agree is against the spirit of the game, but is 'me wanting to live amongst the Dwarves and wanting a way to support them instead of the race I chose' worth any effort?

Unkempt Foliage

I'm not worried about one race never getting a metro. I like the idea that you have to fight for them. I think it's a shame the design team went through all that effort of developing content that no one will see but it's not a deal breaker for me. The things I am worried about are months after release when guilds and server hierarchy are formed how will the world map settle.

Will unpopular races have a chance at a village or will the landscape be dominated by popular races just because of player volume or lack of volume. Even if end up playing the most popular race I still want to see what the others offer. I'd like to see a variety of village, town, and city themes. Not just the most popular races

Are there race specific quests and are they tied node level. How players who play the least popular race able to complete them if they don't have the player population to reach that node level.

What if I want to play one race but live in a city that's not of my race. Can I support that city, or turn off my culture so it doesn't work towards the theme of the city I moved away from.

None of these things will be answered until much later when they start testing closer to release. But I do think it's things they will have to keep in mind during tests. But things are starting to go in circles, so I'll just bow out now.

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