Make Achievements great again

So in most games achievements are kind of there just for the sake of doing them. I say make achievements worth of the time a player puts into them with rewards! This could be in the form of total achievement point where you can turn them in for rewards of horizontal or vertical progression. Another idea is particular themed chains of achievements with relative rewards for your efforts. For example if you complete a chain of cleric/healing related achievements then you get a particular cleric related augment or an increase in a cleric stat such as +1 mentality. If you complete some kind of tank chain of achievements you could gain HP or get a tank related augment. Getting something from achievements that isn't just cosmetic I would love. It also keep the hardcore player interested as they get something to grind that actually gives them some sort of character progression. It's a way of getting those last few extra stats/perks for your character which is a big time dump as compared to the normal progression path. But these progressions should be small addons to your character as to not imbalance the essence of the game. For example an ideal achievement chain for me would be I complete 30 jumping puzzles over an achievement quest chain and I get a reward of +3% movement speed as the reward, it thematically matches the achievement of exploration or an augment which makes a skill movement faster.

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Dygz

Titles can be fun. Especially in an RPG.
Horizontal progression is great - especially for an RPG. RP is not always about being uber.
Vertical progression is going to reach a cap while the devs work on more content.

BaSkA_9x2

I enjoy Achievements because they add content to a game to people that are completionists.

I hope there are Achievements in Ashes, I hope you can inspect other players' Achievements and I definitely hope Achievements reward absolutely no stats or buffs, only titles and cosmetics.

Noaani

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I enjoy Achievements because they add content to a game to people that are completionists.

This can be achieved by using quests in place of achievements.

Vhaeyne

Has anyone brought up the point that achievement systems may be an unnecessary bloat for servers?

Consider that, if each character needs its own unique record of all possible achievements in the game. From what I understand, these systems can be very intense at scale. Looking up every player's achievement records and comparing them to actions in real time constantly to update progress.

I understand that for modern games and databases this is not a huge deal, but most modern games are not trying to push 250v250+ hybrid MMO combat. The extra little-bit of stress on the servers could be the difference between having smoother battles and PowerPoint presentations.

Steven has expressed an interest in having 500v500 siege battles if possible. Even though I am personally very skeptical that such large battles will be fun or interesting compared to a 3v3 or 5v4 arena match. I still would like to see smooth large-scale battles sometime in my life.

Games like WOW and FFXIV have robust achievement systems and are modern MMOs, but both game struggle with large groups of players. If achievement systems are a limiting, factor in large scale PvP or would just cause a general amount of potential lag in the open world. I would definitely prefer not to have them.

Thoughts?

Enigmatic Sage

@Vhaeyne

Yeah they can cause bloat, but bloating is the result of over design and not necessarily one thing.

500vs500 just sounds chaotic. It's far more zerg tactics than skill at that point.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Has anyone brought up the point that achievement systems may be an unnecessary bloat for servers?

Consider that, if each character needs its own unique record of all possible achievements in the game. From what I understand, these systems can be very intense at scale. Looking up every player's achievement records and comparing them to actions in real time constantly to update progress.

I understand that for modern games and databases this is not a huge deal, but most modern games are not trying to push 250v250+ hybrid MMO combat. The extra little-bit of stress on the servers could be the difference between having smoother battles and PowerPoint presentations.

Steven has expressed an interest in having 500v500 siege battles if possible. Even though I am personally very skeptical that such large battles will be fun or interesting compared to a 3v3 or 5v4 arena match. I still would like to see smooth large-scale battles sometime in my life.

Games like WOW and FFXIV have robust achievement systems and are modern MMOs, but both game struggle with large groups of players. If achievement systems are a limiting, factor in large scale PvP or would just cause a general amount of potential lag in the open world. I would definitely prefer not to have them.

Thoughts?

This is entirely possible as an issue.

Us players don't really have much of an understanding of what game features use what resources in terms of server-side computing. I remember talking to one developer that said that about 60% of their actual CPU compute on the server was for AI pathing (they did have a very good system for that though). You mention this to anyone that hasn't worked on that game though (even some developers that think they know the best way to do everything) and they just laugh and say there is no way.

I also remember an EQ2 developer once saying that every time a player kills a mob, the server has to check that mob against every quest the player has - which includes every achievement. This was quite a resource hog early in EQ2's life, though I have never heard more than the general statement that "it uses more server resources than you would think" from them.

Now, obviously this isn't the only way to do this in regards to the games back end, and my understanding is that EQ2 moved away from that system at some point.

However, one way or the other, there needs to be a system in place so that every quest is checked for every kill. When you have quests (or achievements - which are the same thing from a mechanical perspective) that ask you to kill 1,000 of a specific mob type, and the game has 25 different mobs that can be considered that mob type spread all over the game world - and also adds more mobs to the game later on that also need to update this quest - it starts to get fairly involved.

CROW3

If it’s architected well, the amount of data to manage achievements for the player population is a relatively small implementation compared to seriously scaled data systems. It just comes down to how much Intrepid wants to invest in this area. Capacity and processing power is amazing these days.

Side note: I remember when I upgraded my pc to 512kb of RAM at 33mhz. My speaker has more processing power today.

Vhaeyne

CROW3 wrote: »

If it’s architected well, the amount of data to manage achievements for the player population is a relatively small implementation compared to seriously scaled data systems. It just comes down to how much Intrepid wants to invest in this area. Capacity and processing power is amazing these days.

Side note: I remember when I upgraded my pc to 512kb of RAM at 33mhz. My speaker has more processing power today.

I am sure they are doing everything they can to optimize everything they can.

Still, I wonder how considerable the trade-offs would be for a game like Ashes looking to truly put the "Massive" back in MMORPG.

Do achievements come and the cost of:
More lag?
More bugs?
Longer time between patches?
More expensive servers required to run the game?
More time spent on play testing?

These things could all be very minor. They could also be a case of "it uses more server resources than you would think" as Noanni has been told.

Not saying it's one way or the other, just asking questions. Maybe ill ask about it for next month's livestream Q&A.

JustVine

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Has anyone brought up the point that achievement systems may be an unnecessary bloat for servers?

Consider that, if each character needs its own unique record of all possible achievements in the game. From what I understand, these systems can be very intense at scale. Looking up every player's achievement records and comparing them to actions in real time constantly to update progress.

I understand that for modern games and databases this is not a huge deal, but most modern games are not trying to push 250v250+ hybrid MMO combat. The extra little-bit of stress on the servers could be the difference between having smoother battles and PowerPoint presentations.

Steven has expressed an interest in having 500v500 siege battles if possible. Even though I am personally very skeptical that such large battles will be fun or interesting compared to a 3v3 or 5v4 arena match. I still would like to see smooth large-scale battles sometime in my life.

Games like WOW and FFXIV have robust achievement systems and are modern MMOs, but both game struggle with large groups of players. If achievement systems are a limiting, factor in large scale PvP or would just cause a general amount of potential lag in the open world. I would definitely prefer not to have them.

Thoughts?

I agree if it is true however, I know there are ways to code around these problems. But that's a question of if Intrepid has that skill on staff.

Otoh I also love stats. I don't even like achievements. Just random information about things I have done. Achievements are just the standard way I am used to getting this information. Give me an alternative way to access this information that doesn't involve a dps tracker/combat tracker and I'd be happy to take it. I'd gladly make a spread sheet about number of times I dodge rolled in a fire elemental heavy zone and how many times I died to burn.

P. S. I am in no way advocating for or against such trackers. The information I like having is just so far outside their scope it'd limit what data I got.

Vhaeyne

JustVine wrote: »

I agree if it is true however, I know there are ways to code around these problems. But that's a question of if Intrepid has that skill on staff.

Otoh I also love stats. I don't even like achievements. Just random information about things I have done. Achievements are just the standard way I am used to getting this information. Give me an alternative way to access this information that doesn't involve a dps tracker/combat tracker and I'd be happy to take it. I'd gladly make a spread sheet about number of times I dodge rolled in a fire elemental heavy zone and how many times I died to burn.

P. S. I am in no way advocating for or against such trackers. The information I like having is just so far outside their scope it'd limit what data I got.

If achievements were just a tab to see how much gold you have looted or how many times you died to fall damage. I would have no problem with them. Assuming they take little dev time and don't really lag the servers.

I have no problem with having additional information. Up to and including DPS meters.

JustVine

Ah yes gold collected $_$. Indepth gold stats for my spreadsheets please. I wanna run a true mercantile empire thx.

truelyyy

pretty sure the an achievement system won't be the issue for large scale combat. It's the calculations the servers have to do in real time combat for damage/healing. The more complex it is, the more calculations it has to do.

Noaani

truely wrote: »

pretty sure the an achievement system won't be the issue for large scale combat. It's the calculations the servers have to do in real time combat for damage/healing. The more complex it is, the more calculations it has to do.

That does depend.

If the game has PvP quests/achievements that ask for you to kill players of a specific race, or players from a specific node, or any players in a siege - or even more specific things like players using siege engines (we have no idea if any of this will be the case), then that means every kill has to go through all of those checks.

If these quests/achievements update all people involved in a kill as opposed to just the person dealing the killing blow, or even if they have the same rules as loot rights has, that means each kill could require literally hundreds of quest lookups.

Again, it's just a case of these things using more system resources than those of us that have not done things things would initially think they would take.

Whether this is an issue or not is not something I would want to be drawn on. Intrepid are the only ones that can make that call (well, perhaps Amazon could). All I am saying is that based on what I have been told in the past on several occasions, I can absolutely see how it could be a serious issue that limits some aspects of how the game is developed.

Dygz

Ashes already has Achievements in the game design.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

Ashes already has Achievements in the game design.

We literally all know that.

It doesn't mean we can't still discuss it amongst ourselves though.

No one is forcing you to be a part of the discussion if you don't want to be.

Yuyukoyay

Achievements were never great to begin with. xD

The way they should be implemented is you should get minor transmog rewards for doing them. So you never get a mount for doing them, but maybe some unique colors or random equipment looks.

Not a single one should be easy though. Every single one should require thinking to get. I don't mind grindy ones like kill 500 of a mob type for one. Since not many are going to do a thing like that even though it would be obvious it would reward something. None of them should be tutorial related or something as simple as discovering a specific zone. Every single one should have meaning.

If you don't do that and just copy what every other game did. Then it will just lead to no one caring about achievements like always. Every player should value them to some extent. Some people are going to not care about them no matter what, but for some people their goal in the game will be to do them all.

Just avoid having time trial achievements. The reason being is although there is a community for such a thing. The vast majority of players hate that kind of thing. They often hate it to the point of it being a downside for the entire game.

So if you do put something into the game for speed runners to have fun. Make sure it's seperate from the overall experience so that the communities don't clash negatively. I mean normally it might be good for a negative clash like this, but the kind of clashing this will result in would border on a hate crime. xD

Dygz

Hunh.
Never expected transmogs or mounts for Achievements. Weird concept.

My Bartle Score is: Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
Some people are Achiever 87%; Killer 73% ; Socializer 47%; Explorer ....even with no other rewards besides completion board.

BaSkA_9x2

Noaani wrote: »

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I enjoy Achievements because they add content to a game to people that are completionists.

This can be achieved by using quests in place of achievements.

Why not both? What harm does it do? If you don't like them, you can just ignore them

Noaani

BaSkA13 wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

BaSkA13 wrote: »

I enjoy Achievements because they add content to a game to people that are completionists.

This can be achieved by using quests in place of achievements.

Why not both? What harm does it do? If you don't like them, you can just ignore them

It is adding a second system to the game that does exactly the same thing.

That is why not.

Unkempt Foliage

It's not a deal breaker for me if they are in or not either way but I always viewed quests are for the character in game and achievements are for the person behind the keyboard. It's such a minor distinction though that I'm not going to fuss if they are just included as quests.

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