Hybrid weapon attacks. [Melee/Ranged]

Yo I had a random thought after looking at and thinking about the changes they are testing for the melee combat attacks. Wouldn't it be interesting to have ranged weapons gain an option for melee attacks? For example your magic staff normally shoots bolts of fire but then your enemy gets to close so you can continue to shoot the bolts of fire or start smashing them over the head with your staff.
This would allow for more variation in combat and potentially be forced so that ranged weapons need more planning and distance to be effective? That or optional and players can build hybrids that are decent at ranged combat with semi decent melee attacks in a pinch?

Idk, what do you guys think?

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Dygz

We will have to see what options are offered in Weapon Skills.

CROW3

@Sathrago - I like the idea. For the bow I would love a 'stave smash' or somesuch that would knock a mob back to give me an extra second or two to switch to sword and shield.

I can't remember, but I think there are minimum distances for ranged weapons, so this would be in line with that tactically.

Edit: Yep, here's the wiki entry for minimum distances applied to rangers. I'd be interested to know whether this might apply to bows in general.

Denahi

I am all for this suggestion, it would add some variation to ranged combat and not make them completely fragile in close quarter combat. I also think that there should be a visible knockback to any mob or player that gets hit, with the enemy having a realistic effect of stumbling backwards, that would put some distance in between you, enough to give you room to switch weapons or position.

Sathrago

CROW3 wrote: »

@Sathrago - I like the idea. For the bow I would love a 'stave smash' or somesuch that would knock a mob back to give me an extra second or two to switch to sword and shield.

I can't remember, but I think there are minimum distances for ranged weapons, so this would be in line with that tactically.

Edit: Yep, here's the wiki entry for minimum distances applied to rangers. I'd be interested to know whether this might apply to bows in general.

Don't forget we still have our hands and feet to deal attacks, so we don't need to smash them with our precious bow when we can kick them really hard in the shins.

But seriously though some variation of hand to hand combat weaved into improvised attacks with the ranged weapon would be my vision for this sort of feature.

Denahi wrote: »

I am all for this suggestion, it would add some variation to ranged combat and not make them completely fragile in close quarter combat. I also think that there should be a visible knockback to any mob or player that gets hit, with the enemy having a realistic effect of stumbling backwards, that would put some distance in between you, enough to give you room to switch weapons or position.

mcstackerson

Denahi wrote: »

I am all for this suggestion, it would add some variation to ranged combat and not make them completely fragile in close quarter combat. I also think that there should be a visible knockback to any mob or player that gets hit, with the enemy having a realistic effect of stumbling backwards, that would put some distance in between you, enough to give you room to switch weapons or position.

In the past, we were told that we would have both a melee and ranged weapon slots like classic wow, so the expectation would be that you use your range weapon at range and switch to melee when they get close. Currently is not implemented and we haven't heard any updates on this to my knowledge but also have no confirmation that it's no longer planned.

Denahi

I think any sort of cc or knockback would need to be a skill or augment you pick up with the melee option as a core feature for any ranged weapon. These will by no means be better than your standard melee weapon, and I wouldn't want a cc mechanic to be directly tied to it baseline. It's there as an "Ah shit I can't get away but they are too close for shooting projectiles at" situation. See what I mean?[/quote]

I agree but I envision it as part of the ranged toolkit, only as a slight knockback for enemies that gets too close. I think that it should be a standard animation based off of the premise that the auto attack changes into a slight knockback when we automtically hit the enemy that's gotten too close with the hilt of the staff or using our bow to knock them off balance instead. It's still sort of a "Ah shit" effect, making it into a augment for a brief snare, feels like overkill, but I support your idea, I just want it to be a core element of any ranged attacks.

Sathrago

Denahi wrote: »

I agree but I envision it as part of the ranged toolkit, only as a slight knockback for enemies that gets too close. I think that it should be a standard animation based off of the premise that the auto attack changes into a slight knockback when we automtically hit the enemy that's gotten too close with the hilt of the staff or using our bow to knock them off balance instead. It's still sort of a "Ah shit" effect, making it into a augment for a brief snare, feels like overkill, but I support your idea, I just want it to be a core element of any ranged attacks.

Well I am just thinking about this from the melee attacker's perspective and how annoying it would be to fight a ranged character that can knock you back anytime you get into melee with them. Think about it this way. A player with this could walk into melee of any caster and screw over any cast time spells they wanted to use. this could potentially mess with charge spells, dash spells, leap spells etc. A free spammable knockback on melee attacks for ranged weapons only would be too controversial and quite honestly broken until melee got something to counter act it, which is the kind of rabbit hole I would like to avoid sliding down.

Denahi

How about giving it a cooldown then, realistically the character would tire having too swing an impractical weapon as a staff or a bow continously.
Besides if you as a ranged fighter is in a predicament where more than 1 melee fighter has gotten close, it's difficult to fend of even one of them and creating some distance, I think it's very reasonable for anyone who's using a ranged weapon.

Sathrago

Denahi wrote: »

How about giving it a cooldown then, realistically the character would tire having too swing an impractical weapon as a staff or a bow continously.
Besides if you as a ranged fighter is in a predicament where more than 1 melee fighter has gotten close, it's difficult to fend of even one of them and creating some distance, I think it's very reasonable for anyone who's using a ranged weapon.

and that is where it goes into skill/augment territory. Which I completely support as an option.

Denahi

I see your point, and tbh I am fine with it being an augment, as long as it feels natural and the enemy displays a realistic knockback animation, I am behind it

CROW3

A 30-45s CD for a knockback seems totally reasonable to me. Enough to cycle for mob encounters, long enough that it's only usable once or twice in a single pvp encounter (where the targeted avg TTK is 30s).

Chrismaral

i could imagine it switching your weapon gear from melee to range (vice versa) and by that also augumentig your skill bar in a less effective set (due to beeing out of your comfort zone). it would also balance the skill weight, like a ranged will have the upper hand till the melee reaches him then the adcantage switches and the ranged has to decide if he should try to gain distance or to risk it to finish the melee in close combat.

Sathrago

Lejee wrote: »

i could imagine it switching your weapon gear from melee to range (vice versa) and by that also augumentig your skill bar in a less effective set (due to beeing out of your comfort zone). it would also balance the skill weight, like a ranged will have the upper hand till the melee reaches him then the adcantage switches and the ranged has to decide if he should try to gain distance or to risk it to finish the melee in close combat.

I have never really been a fan of games that allow for weapon swap... because what stops melee oriented characters from bringing a ranged weapon until they get into melee range?

HumblePuffin

Sathrago wrote: »

I have never really been a fan of games that allow for weapon swap... because what stops melee oriented characters from bringing a ranged weapon until they get into melee range?

I personally enjoy that aspect as long as it’s balanced to be a less effective form of damage for melee due to lack of proficiency. We only have the tank to go off of currently but they seem to have enough ways to consistently close the gap so would probably prefer to close the distance, but then they also have a way to get in some damage as they are kited.

Depending on the amount of CC in game, playing melee vs ranged can be absolutely painful at times. Knowing when to/actively switching to ranged adds a higher skill ceiling into the game in my opinion.

CROW3

Sathrago wrote: »

I have never really been a fan of games that allow for weapon swap... because what stops melee oriented characters from bringing a ranged weapon until they get into melee range?

That's really interesting. I have the exact opposite opinion. I loved that my warrior tank could engage with a bow before charging in with a sword.

I don't agree with the flip side of this argument either: that a ranger shouldn't be able to engage with a sword because it's a ranged class. That feels really stifling and awkward to me.

Not saying that a warrior is necessarily as proficient with a bow as a ranger (depending on augments), or that a ranger is necessarily as proficient with a sword as a warrior (depending on augments). Having the freedom to be versatile in combat is crucial to me.

Dolyem

Honestly this is a good idea to keep in mind. I personally would consider it more for specific class builds that it would make sense for such as ranger/rogue or ranger/fighter variants where they have a focus on range but can get up close and personal when needed. Depending on how they decide to do things it can either be basic attacks or even just a few abilities that can be activated in close range. A super simple but memorable ability was for hunters in WoW, wing clip. Was a melee strike that slowed the targets movement so they could distance themselves. But yea, having classes that are versatile in either range or melee (sort of a good at both but master of neither mentality to avoid being overpowered) would be awesome

Sathrago

CROW3 wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I have never really been a fan of games that allow for weapon swap... because what stops melee oriented characters from bringing a ranged weapon until they get into melee range?

That's really interesting. I have the exact opposite opinion. I loved that my warrior tank could engage with a bow before charging in with a sword.

I don't agree with the flip side of this argument either: that a ranger shouldn't be able to engage with a sword because it's a ranged class. That feels really stifling and awkward to me.

Not saying that a warrior is necessarily as proficient with a bow as a ranger (depending on augments), or that a ranger is necessarily as proficient with a sword as a warrior (depending on augments). Having the freedom to be versatile in combat is crucial to me.

The issue I have with it is not an aesthetic or logic sort. It's because games are really crappy about balancing characters that can do this in a way that I enjoy. ESO and New World have this weapon swap mechanic and it allows for extremely stupid hybrid builds.
"Oh you have a big ol hammer to smack people with? Oh crap you kinda hurt ok at least I am about to kill you since you dont do too much damag- Why are you healing?"
Now this is mostly due to their reliance on weapons to have abilities in the first place, but I just prefer the sweet and simple 1 weapon approach. I am not so dead set in this view that I would never play games with a weapon swap mechanic, I just worry about how it will be balanced, and if jackasses can "change classes" in the middle of my fight with them.

HumblePuffin wrote: »

Sathrago wrote: »

I have never really been a fan of games that allow for weapon swap... because what stops melee oriented characters from bringing a ranged weapon until they get into melee range?

I personally enjoy that aspect as long as it’s balanced to be a less effective form of damage for melee due to lack of proficiency. We only have the tank to go off of currently but they seem to have enough ways to consistently close the gap so would probably prefer to close the distance, but then they also have a way to get in some damage as they are kited.

Depending on the amount of CC in game, playing melee vs ranged can be absolutely painful at times. Knowing when to/actively switching to ranged adds a higher skill ceiling into the game in my opinion.

Yes, you are correct the mechanic is fine as long as its balanced to be less effective. I honestly don't feel confident that games can balance it well enough that this sort of hybrid combat does not get out of hand. There are all sorts of weapons in the game that will have different passive augments you can pick up the further along you get in them. What happens if they make a weapon really good at life-stealing or escape skills? Everyone and their dog will equip that as their secondary weapon to heal when they aren't a healer or in general escape when the situation warrants it. These weapons would devolve from preference into necessity for many competitive players.
Having the weapon locked to a single choice during combat makes things less muddled and chaotic, Ok that guys got an axe watch out for x, imo feels better than, Ok that guys got an axe and a bow. Because now you have to deal with two entirely different fighting styles and this could be different for each and every character. Balance becomes extremely difficult to finetune at this point because there are too many combinations.

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