Character creation diversity

Hey this game looks amazing for alpha stage! I am personally very interested in seeing this game succeed and from all the footage I watched there was one thing that was really lacking and that was lack of diverse looking characters primarily when it came to seeing different races. Many people I think take a lot of joy in making very different looking characters and in games like WoW and Everquest 2 one of the things that was super appealing was just having so many options to choose from in terms of race and customizing your character to be as unique as possible

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Dolyem

Vhaeyne wrote: »

LoLesttK wrote: »

This is the dumbest thread ever..
Devs please don't ruin the game with some SJW bs

I have to disagree. It has nothing to do with SJW nonsense in this case.

It is about allowing a respectable amount of player agency. Time and time again we sit down to create our characters only to have a limited amount of freedom based on some arbitrary lore that is rarely infallible.

Even in a game like Lord of the Rings Online. A game pulling from what is some of the most recognizable and well-known fantasy lore. Even in LOTRO you could make a black hobbit. Why? Because it allows for more player freedom, and it does not change the lore significantly or negatively. All it does is make the game more fun for more people.

To me, the only way to ruin a game is to chose lore over fun and player agency. If I just wanted pure lore, I would read a book.

The beauty of it is you can have plenty of lore written however you want. As far as gameplay goes it just comes down to the individual and doesn't have to actually affect the lore, allowing for players to play however they want.

wherediditrun

Dygz wrote: »

I'm not sure what this means but it sounds to me like:
"Black people should not be allowed to be Kaelar. If black players want to play a Kaelar they should be happy having a light-skinned avatar instead of an avatar that is more similar to the appearance of the player."
Which traditionally has also meant...if a black person wants to play a Dwarf or a Halfling or an Elf they should be happy with a light-skinned character. Because everyone knows that Dwarves, Halflings and Elves are light-skinned instead of dark-skinned.

Yeah. I understand that you do. And recognize that it's perfectly possible to come to that conclusion. And sadly, probably in too many cases you would be correct.

My perspective is that .. well it goes back to the fact that I'm a bit of Elder Scrolls fan. And you know what my favorite humans are? Redguards. Who's image are mainly influenced by nothern and east Africa. Interestingly enough at least warrior culture is more inspired by feudal japan. So one thing they look cool. Secondly their martial culture is bad ass interesting and within the game lore they are the only ones who do not capitulate to Aldmeri Dominion, supremacist high elf faction.

There is so much more about Redguards which I'm not mentioning which captivating imagination, like sword singing, geomancy, first to gunpowder, naval capacity, unique take on "paladins" hell, even political / cultural struggles within, but I will cut short here.

I've red about Vaelune and got captivated by it probably by some similarities it had with Redgaurds. Namely carving their place in the world through hardship just like Redguards did when they came to Tamriel in Hammerfell and had to exterminate a lot of hostile fauna to settle. Namely, a place no-one else before could claim.

And you tell me that having them to tilt more towards darker complexions is not only bad, but somehow degrading (unless you want to implement full sliders to only some of the human races). If you analyze this like a total alien you would be forgiven to believe that the proposer thinks that there is something off with being of darker complexion. Now I don't think you do. But for a person who hold my frame of reference it may appear that way. As I'm devoid of the context you share and live in, the only idea space we share is that one of the game.

And that game has to speak to everyone. People like you, people living in north-east Europe, people in Japan in Egypt etc. To expect that devs can appeal to each and everyone is nigh impossible. As all contexts will be different, yet we somehow should find ways to discuss the game.

Which you did naming origin of Sanctum, which I think is more fit conversation to have. And that's a solid point we both can recognize and meaningfully engage with. And hence I haven't disagreed with the sliders all that much. It's just the framing and assumptions made about people's intentions which I felt to be off putting.

Dygz

I think we are actually in agreement??

Tenaciel

Dygz wrote: »

Um. If you go to Japan, you will find dark-skinned Japanese people. Just as if you go to Britain you will see British people of Asian descent.
Being light skinned does not prevent people from becoming Bantu or Maori. Skin color is not a factor.

Elf, Orc, Dwarf, Human and Tulnar are different species. Which has nothing to do with skin color.
Kaelar and Vaelune are different cultures. Which also has nothing to do with skin color.
I think what you mean is diversity is beautiful.
I haven't said anything about mixing things to be the same.
My Baldur's Gate 3 Dwarf is not the same as my BG3 Tiefling. They are both beautiful.

The systematic racism that has traditionally been in place in RPG fantasy settings promotes the concept of skin color being a primary factor of "race". Which is problematic.
D&D 3rd Edition finally removed the rules that restricted the skin colors associated with fantasy "species".
By 2021, it's time for MMORPGs to catch up.

"Race" has nothing to do with "common sense".
My grandmother was born Colored and died white.
In the hospital as a newborn, my niece was white if my brother was not present and African American if he was present.
A friend of mine told me a couple of days ago that her father was born Caucasian and died Asian.
"Common sense" has nothing to do with skin color being a factor of "race". And for thousands of years of Human history skin color had nothing to do with ethnicity.
You could actually become educated about the history of "race" instead of trying to rely on "common sense".
"Common sense" also leads some people to believe the Earth is flat. Just as it lead people to believe that the Sun circles the Earth and that the Earth is the center of the universe.

Ohm...what the actual *** are you talking about? I'm shocked...please next time keep this kind of nonsense for yourselfe.

Vhaeyne

Tenaciel wrote: »

Ohm...what the actual *** are you talking about? I'm shocked...please next time keep this kind of nonsense for yourselfe.

His story is a touch more personal than I think is appropriate for video game forums.

That said, I think he wants more colors in races for the same end reason that I want more skin colors.
More freedom.

We just get there coming from different places.

Tenaciel

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Ohm...what the actual *** are you talking about? I'm shocked...please next time keep this kind of nonsense for yourselfe.

His story is a touch more personal than I think is appropriate for video game forums.

That said, I think he wants more colors in races for the same end reason that I want more skin colors.
More freedom.

We just get there coming from different places.

Yes I understand, and it is fine, but the "born caucasian and died asian" line just killed me...nobody in right mind can actually believe this

I think its better to keep these nonsense far away from this forum.

Conrad

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Tenaciel

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Finally...I'm happy that not everybody is insane these days. Thanks Conrad you restored my faith in humanity.

Vhaeyne

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Tenaciel

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

JustVine

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

Vhaeyne

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

less ways for me to be creative, less ways for me to make cool looking characters.

I find that shit to be fun.

You are talking to a guy who has spent more time in city of heros character creator than the game.

Tenaciel

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

JustVine

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?

Tenaciel

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?

Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.

JustVine

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?

Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.

I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?

Dygz

Tenaciel wrote: »

Yes I understand, and it is fine, but the "born caucasian and died asian" line just killed me...nobody in right mind can actually believe this

I think its better to keep these nonsense far away from this forum.

"Race" is not "common sense".
Trying to determine race by skin color is not as simple as some people think.
My grandmother was born Colored but is light-skinned enough that the coroner assumed she was white.
Similar for my niece as a newborn at the hospital.
My friend's grandparents were Persian but her father was born and raised in Northern India. When he was born, he was classified as Caucasian and that is how he identified while he was alive. When he died, in the US (which is where my friend was born and raised), he was classified as Asian because he was born in India.

Nonsense is thinking that it should not be possible for any "race" to be dark-skinned.
There are, in fact, Scandinavians with dark skin and African features.

We will probably be able to create Elves and Kaelar with dark-skin. So, you're right, there is no problem.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

less ways for me to be creative, less ways for me to make cool looking characters.

I find that shit to be fun.

You are talking to a guy who has spent more time in city of heros character creator than the game.

I don't have a particular preference in this discussion, but I will say that limitation is often the catalyst of true creativity.

Tenaciel

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?

Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.

I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?

There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your caracter to be black, choose the correct race.

Sathrago

Unless a species of humanoid has the fruity flavors of demonic, draconic, angelic, elemental, faerie, or other odd ancestry they should be able to choose any skin tone within the range of what a normal human can be. I don't think you should be able to make yourself a Purple skinned human but I do think you could with a little demonic blood in your veins. You could also have a completely normal human skin tone with a demonic bloodline. I think this is a good balance to strike.

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