Character creation diversity

Hey this game looks amazing for alpha stage! I am personally very interested in seeing this game succeed and from all the footage I watched there was one thing that was really lacking and that was lack of diverse looking characters primarily when it came to seeing different races. Many people I think take a lot of joy in making very different looking characters and in games like WoW and Everquest 2 one of the things that was super appealing was just having so many options to choose from in terms of race and customizing your character to be as unique as possible

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JustVine

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

JustVine wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

Vhaeyne wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

I have no idea what this who thread is about anymore, I will just say this:

Keep races Verra lore accurate and don't bend the lore just to give a race more skin colours. Considering how people are mentioning 2 different human subspecies in Verra (or at least I assume; this thread has gone to shit now) I assume the 2 sub species have different skin colours, so keep them like that. I dont see why humans can't be divided into "subspecies" in a game. If there is no racism, but you still see racism, YOU are racist.

Your whole post reads like:
"Keep the lore pure!"

I know you are saying more than that, but that is how it reads.

Tell me why lore is more important than player agency and fun?

Why and how does it effect fun in any way? I don't get it.

Because I dislike not being able to play dark tan characters in basically any game and have less fun when it isn't an option?

You are able to create a dark tan character. Just not an elf or a kalear...for example. So I see no problem here.

Oh I can't make dark tan elfs now? My intended alt? See now I would have actual literal skin in the game. Why do you want me to have less fun?

Okay, whatever...it seems I'm not able to understand what is your problem at all. If the caracteristic of your choosen race is to have dark or light toned skin, then accept it....thats all.

I like looking a certain way. I like the way I look contrasts with certain colors on armor. Does that help?

There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your caracter to be black, choose the correct race.

Uuuuuuuuuuh ok. You know what I am just going to ignore this again. I thought you were trying to understand why I would have less fun in good faith. If we are back to demonstrably false 'middle eastern populations can't have white looking skin' thing then its not worth continuing the discussion.

Dygz

Tenaciel wrote: »

There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.

In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.

"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."

Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.

Tenaciel

Dygz wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.

In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.

"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."

Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.

You're living in a dreamworld. But as long as you're happy I'm happy too...sooner or later you will realize you were wrong anyway...the sooner it is, the better for you...

Better to leave this to you, because it is leading the topic far from the original thoughts.

Conrad

Honestly, the only gripe with the whole skin colour thing I have is elves having dark skin if not drow. If drow, I don't mind dark skin but on high or wood elves, dark skin would just be stupid. Like or hate me

CROW3

Tenaciel wrote: »

You're living in a dreamworld. But as long as you're happy I'm happy too...sooner or later you will realize you were wrong anyway...the sooner it is, the better for you...

Bwhahahahahahahahaha. Well, I guess if you don’t see the issue, there must not be an issue. It’s unfortunate that the door to this ‘dreamworld’ is blocked behind all these books! The fire next time.

Conrad

Dygz wrote: »

Tenaciel wrote: »

There is no white Vaelune similarly as there is no black Kalear. Just like in real life subspecies. And I don't see what is the problem with it. If you want your character to be black, choose the correct race.

In real life, any Homo Sapiens "subspecies" can have dark skin.
Kaelar are based on European culture. There have been dark-skinned Europeans pretty much ever since the concept of Europe.

"First introduced in the 1780s by members of the Göttingen school of history, the term denoted one of three purported major races of humankind (those three being Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid). In biological anthropology, Caucasoid has been used as an umbrella term for phenotypically similar groups from these different regions, with a focus on skeletal anatomy, and especially cranial morphology, without regard to skin tone. Ancient and modern 'Caucasoid' populations were thus not exclusively 'white', but ranged in complexion from white-skinned to dark brown."

Again, it's easy enough to become educated about the concept of "white" people. When and why that became a concept and also how skin color has historically been associated with ethnicity. And, again, you can learn about when certain ethnicities who are now considered to be white were excluded from being white.

Varies by how dark skinned you mean, Hispanic or Greek only had slightly darker skin. There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that? In medieval times there was such a thing as Infidels and the ilk. Medieval era was pretty racist, but even despite that, people use medieval age for fantasy. Probably the rawest splice of humanity you can get.

CROW3

Conrad wrote: »

There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?

Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗

wherediditrun

CROW3 wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?

Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗

Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.

That being said, the overall number wasn't significant. And probably most people living in their homelands didn't even seen people of different skin tones other than their own. Not a surprising thing, there weren't many Europeans in Mali empire either, with slight exception of Egypt for a while. And those People didn't travel that much back when outside of military campaigns, merchants who were always on the move or against their will being captured by Ottoman slavers who had step-hold in both Africa and Europe at the time.

Also, people in general were way more xenophobic at the time too. And in many cases not for trivial reasons. Like not having immunity to certain disease the new guy may be carrying.

Conrad

wherediditrun wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?

Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗

Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.

That being said, the overall number wasn't significant. And probably most people living in their homelands didn't even seen people of different skin tones other than their own. Not a surprising thing, there weren't many Europeans in Mali empire either. And those People didn't travel that much back when outside of military campaigns, merchants who were always on the move or against their will being captured by Ottoman slavers who had step-hold in both Africa and Europe at the time.

Yes, this sort of example I excluded because it was a very rare thing indeed. Its not like 100% no black people or anything, but the numbers were so insignificant either in ancient or medieval times that might as well no count it.

Dygz

But... possible.
This whole derail is in response to someone saying it should not be possible to have dark skinned Kaelar.

Conrad

Dygz wrote: »

But... possible.
This whole derail is in response to someone saying it should not be possible to have dark skinned Kaelar.

Possible, but just because a different race lives in kaelar land, doesn't mean they are kaelar

Dygz

Um. There were dark skinned Romans and dark skinned Greeks in antiquity because in antiquity skin color had nothing to do with ethnicity. Assimilation into the culture was what counted.
We agree it was possible. Perfect.
Again, it's easy enough to become educated about when and why that changed.

JustVine

Given y'all are touching the actual reason I think this is dumb on a level outside 'ruining other people's fun for the sake of lore purity.'

Any human population with enough trade will mix. Even if the main population is a majority skin tone. The races before exile to the other realm presumably traded. Even if the populations were isolated, skin tone flexibility sticks for many many generations. Therefore even from a realism perspective.... IT'S STILL WRONG. I don't care if monotone populations are possible in humanity, because that ISNT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. We are talking about two 'fallen' civilizations who once presumably had trade.

If you continue to the reponse of 'it's not realistic to the lore' all it takes is one small change in phrasing from Steven to make it way /more/ possible than it already is because skin tone is flexible and complex.

Barbillus

Dygz wrote: »

I think its better to keep these nonsense far away from this forum.

"Race" is not "common sense".
Trying to determine race by skin color is not as simple as some people think.
My grandmother was born Colored but is light-skinned enough that the coroner assumed she was white.
Similar for my niece as a newborn at the hospital.
My friend's grandparents were Persian but her father was born and raised in Northern India. When he was born, he was classified as Caucasian and that is how he identified while he was alive. When he died, in the US (which is where my friend was born and raised), he was classified as Asian because he was born in India.[/quote]

You are confusing arbitrary notions of race set by nations with the biological concept of race. A Persian ia Caucasoid even though Persia is geographically in Asia, the same applies to India.

Dygz wrote: »

Nonsense is thinking that it should not be possible for any "race" to be dark-skinned.
There are, in fact, Scandinavians with dark skin and African features.

Once again you are confusing geography and nationality with ethnicity. An ethnic Sub Saharan African can be born in Scandinavia but that does not make him ethnically Scandinavian, ethnic Scandinavians are Nordics, Finnic and Sami people. The same counts for an English man born in Somalia, he may be Somalian by nationality but by ethnicity he is still English.

I agree on your point that skin colour isn't the main component of a race, you are right but not in the way you think. A Caucasoid's skin colour can range from fair (like a Nordic) to light brown/olive (like a Arab or Indo-Aryan). Race isn't classified by skin colour only, but instead by DNA, skull shape and skeletal structure. If a sub race is based off a real world ethnicity than that sub race should have the skin ranges associated with its real life counterpart, the same goes for a sub race based off the Mali Empire or Nubians. A pasty white Nubian would not make much sense.

wherediditrun wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

Conrad wrote: »

There were no black people living in European areas. There were merchants sure, cuz Egypt, India and other Arabian kingdoms, but besides that?

Your assertion is just wrong. There were Africans throughout medieval Europe, even before the Moorish invasion of Rome in 846. Go do some reading then provide a more qualified assertion. 🤗

Yes, like Numidian auxilaries in Legions of Rome. Who were granted citizenship through service and probably some even held some kind of office at some point.

You guys should really learn what the term African means. Numidians were Africans but they were not Sub Saharan African (black in american terms), they were Berber and thus Caucasoid. Barely any contact was made with Sub Sahara Africa by Europe in the ancient world, with the exception of the Greeks encountering the Numidians occasionally. Sub Saharan Africans had no significant presence in Europe until the slave trade started and likewise Europeans had no significant presence in Sub Sahara Africa until the age of colonisation. To include a Sub Saharan African in a European fantasy setting would be laughable. Just as it would be laughable to include an Englishman in a Sub Saharan setting.

Why is it such a bad thing that people want the sub races to be unique?
Even if they include every real life race into each human sub races, not only would that make them no longer unique but it would not make sense. If a tribe that is isolated has many different ethnic groups existing within their lands, then over the course of years they would all eventually mix and become the same ethnicity anyway. Take Madagascar as an example, inhabited originally by Malay and Sub Saharan African, over the course of centuries and isolation they mixed with each other and today most Madagascans look the same. (with the exception of some very isolated tribes)

Dygz

Ethnicity: the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
There is nothing in that definition about skin color.
Skin color is not what makes ethnicities unique.
And, it is possible for any ethnicity to have members/people with dark skin.

Tenaciel

Dygz wrote: »

Ethnicity: the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition.
There is nothing in that definition about skin color.
Skin color is not what makes ethnicities unique.
And, it is possible for any ethnicity to have members/people with dark skin.

...don't even bother @Barbillus he is just hopeless. It is sad, but there are peoples like him...facts, reason and reality don't work with them. They ony care about their feelings. And if the facts are not maching with their feelings...just run, you can't do anything...they are unreasonable.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

I don't have a particular preference in this discussion, but I will say that limitation is often the catalyst of true creativity.

I agree with you 100%. Limitation is "often" the catalyst for true creativity. We both know that often and always is not the same word. Stuff like this needs to be evaluated case by case.

There is a point where limitation can be too restricting.

How creative could someone be with the Vanilla WOW character creator vs the City of Heroes character creator?

I can't think of a game where restrictions in the character creator leads to more creativity. What restrictions do is make me like the game less and make me not want to play certain races because I can't get them to look good.

DDO has a race called Warforged that looks like ass. Everything in that game looks like ass, but Warforged are extra ass. For years, I refused to play them because I could not get them to look right. Eventually, they came out with a set of cosmetic armor and helmets that actually worked with the race. I had to spend a few extra dollars on cosmetics to make a race playable to me. Which sucks because the race has a lot of potential for good builds and hybrid play styles. In this case, my creative solution was to throw money at a paper bag to put over my character's head because no options in the character creator were good.

I prefer not to have my favorite race be limited to a situation where I have to just wear full-body and head cosmetics to make it look good. That is not fun. I would much rather have so many options I feel the need to spend 4 hours in the character creator getting the colors just right.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I can't think of a game where restrictions in the character creator leads to more creativity.

I want to reiterate here, although this post suggests a specific stance on this topic, I don't have one. I am all for all skin colors for all races, but if Intrepid want to have some lore-based reasoning behind why one is generally lighter or darker skinned, then I am fully behind that as well.

However, to the specific point above.

Lets take Dygz as an example here. He has me on ignore, so it's easy.

We all know that his first character will basically be as close to him as possible. White hair, dark skin. Chances are, any alts that he makes will be variations on this general theme.

Now, if the game has a race that doesn't allow for white hair, he will have to get creative in order to make a character of that race that he is happy with.

That is a situation where restrictions in a character creator leads to more creativity.

Your case with Warforged seem more to me like a case of just not having particularly good options for that race at all (you are not the only person I know that has said this same thing).

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Lets take Dygz as an example here. He has me on ignore, so it's easy.

Now, if the game has a race that doesn't allow for white hair, he will have to get creative in order to make a character of that race that he is happy with.

That is a situation where restrictions in a character creator leads to more creativity.

IDK, Dygz has come off as being pretty stubborn on here many times. I can be that way myself, so it is easy to recognize. If I see something I don't like, there is no chance of getting me to find ways to enjoy it.

It is very possible that he has the same type of reaction I would to a race I can't make look good. He will not play that race or just cover it in a "paper bag". I don't think he or I would take it as a challenge to be more creative. We just get annoyed because we have an image in our head of what type of character we want to make and a game that does not allow it. It is even more annoying with other races have the colors you want.

Undead is a pretty good race in WOW, but I never played it in the past because the hairstyles and skin textures were ass. Recently, in Shadowlands they updated the character creator and Undead were looking quite playable with new skin textures and hairstyles. If the game was good enough to play to the extent that I would have needed an alt I would have gone undead for sure due to the recent improvements to the race's customization. Sadly, the game was so bad I did not even need a main.

I think it is far more likely that someone just ignores or covers up a race.

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

If I see something I don't like, there is no chance of getting me to find ways to enjoy it.

At this point, we are able to talk about more than just skin options and so I am happy to maintain a position in the larger picture - though I am specifically only going to talk about hair styles and color.

In your opinion, should all game developers make all hair styles available to all races, or should some races have some hairstyles that are unique to them?

To me, the answer is that there should be a solid number of hair styles that are common to all races, but each race should have it's own specific few hair styles, including facial hair.

I don't personally think Elves of any sort should be given Dwarf beards as an option, for example.

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