LMAO
The TL:DR of this video is that Ashes is for everyone.
Who does Steven say is not in their target audience?
To be fair, you have to believe they are targeting the game at everyone, as you would be right at the top of the list of people this game is not aimed at.
If you don't want to group, if you don't want to have PvP mixed in with your PvE, if you are unwilling to PvE in order to PvP, then this game is straight up not for you.
If you want to raid as per any other MMO ever released, if you want to focus on ladder based PvP, if you want a theme park style content delivery, this game is not for you.
To suggest that they are aiming this game at all MMO players is ludicrous, even for you, Dygz.
LMAO
The TL:DR of this video is that Ashes is for everyone.
Who does Steven say is not in their target audience?
This is part of the reason why I have been calling for Intrepid to be more explicit about their target audience. We get a firm "Ashes is not going to be for everyone" one day and a round about "Ashes is for everyone" another day.
This sort of reckless public relations will lead to overhype and massive player population spikes, followed by disappointment and failure.
I tend to believe Steven when he firmly says:"Ashes is not going to be for everyone" to the MMORPG Subreddit and on other streams because if you look at the systems in the game you will clearly see that not everyone is going to like Ashes.
People are coming to Ashes thinking this is some sort of care bear picnic. Ignoring all the times Steven has said "Risk Vs Reward". The very concept of "Risk Vs Reward" being a design philosophy for Ashes is a guarantee that Ashes is not for everyone.
I think "Ashes is for everyone" is an open invitation for anyone and everyone to give a try, live a little, you might like it. The problem then becomes like you say Vhaeyne, inevitable population spikes and drops, and the impact that has on individual servers. They better have some mitigation strategies for that.
I have a very strong position on this issue:
At first if the target audience mattered, but after a few months that would stop mattering.
When you have a good product, your target audience does not matter, rather those that reach you are out of curiosity, popularity, etc.
Thinks that rather the main factor is to mold the product in such a way that in the future (after a few months of the realization) it is in tune with the different niches or in this case continue with the main idea until it is improved for such. point that its quality draws the attention of different audiences.
I think "Ashes is for everyone" is an open invitation for anyone and everyone to give a try, live a little, you might like it. The problem then becomes like you say Vhaeyne, inevitable population spikes and drops, and the impact that has on individual servers. They better have some mitigation strategies for that.
You hit the nail on the head. Anyone should be welcomed to try Ashes or look into it and see if it is for them or not. No one should be questioning that.
Not everyone is going to enjoy what Ashes is as a game. Jahlons video is actually perfect at explaining the things that will push people away from Ashes. The only place I disagree with Jahlon is the extent to how Ashes should change to expand to a larger audience and the long-term viability of Ashes as a niche game.
I don't know that Intrepid has any viable migration strategies. You can't just merge servers when things like castles and nodes are involved. Which is why the population spike is such a huge worry for me. Maybe something like a really long multi month public beta before launch. To really show the world what the game is going to be. Give people a chance to fully understand what Ashes is before everyone floods the game on launch day.
point that its quality draws the attention of different audiences.
If I make the best dog collar in the world, but only for chihuahuas, my target audience is restricted to those with or those wanting a chihuahua.
If you do not want a dog, or do not want a chihuahua, my product - potentially the highest quality dog collar on the planet - is straight up not for you.
When you have a good product, your target audience does not matter
Uhm…no. Not only is this wrong, it’s a completely indefensible assertion. 😉
WOW SD 2019 December, the highest peak of WOW and MMMO retail games in the last 10 years.
They did not get that for having the best content or the best graphics, or the best attention, they got it simply and simply because of their marketing, which thanks to the fact that they were (supposedly XD) the best should only attract the attention of a public sector for others to follow.
When you have a good product, your target audience does not matter
Uhm…no. Not only is this wrong, it’s a completely indefensible assertion. 😉
WOW SD 2019 December, the highest peak of WOW and MMMO retail games in the last 10 years.
They did not get that for having the best content or the best graphics, or the best attention, they got it simply and simply because of their marketing, which thanks to the fact that they were (supposedly XD) the best should only attract the attention of a public sector for others to follow.
They had marketing aimed at the general MMO genre along with a product that was inoffensive to the bulk of those players.
That same marketing simply will not work with a game with open PvP, let alone other aspects of Ashes.
I think the question that is being sought is the following:
-If AoC gets an audience outside of their target, should they work to find a way to keep them or should they continue and improve things that led them to come?
Yeah I dunno what they're going to do about it Vhaeyne. A multi month public beta would help. The NDA free Alpha2/Betas that are already planned should help, but not as much as a public beta where people can actually try it themselves.
One good thing is that the upcoming Alphas and Betas are probably going to be far more savage pvp wise than actual launch, because it's just alpha or beta, no one cares. So that might make it more obvious to people the type of game it is.
I'm thinking just keeping the servers very tight. Not spinning up a ton of new servers in the initial rush. Realizing that it might work out, the game might be that wildly successful, but that if it doesn't you're looking at an absolute disaster if you push out a ton of servers to match initial demand.
No idea, so many variables. I'm not a dev. That's for them to figure out.
they got it simply and simply because of their marketing, which thanks to the fact that they were (supposedly XD) the best should only attract the attention of a public sector for others to follow.
You understand that marketing is entirely focused on product positioning to targeted consumer segments, right? 🤨
LMAO
The TL:DR of this video is that Ashes is for everyone.
Who does Steven say is not in their target audience?
To be fair, you have to believe they are targeting the game at everyone, as you would be right at the top of the list of people this game is not aimed at.
If you don't want to group, if you don't want to have PvP mixed in with your PvE, if you are unwilling to PvE in order to PvP, then this game is straight up not for you.
If you want to raid as per any other MMO ever released, if you want to focus on ladder based PvP, if you want a theme park style content delivery, this game is not for you.
To suggest that they are aiming this game at all MMO players is ludicrous, even for you, Dygz.
I tend to believe Steven when he firmly says:"Ashes is not going to be for everyone" to the MMORPG Subreddit and on other streams because if you look at the systems in the game you will clearly see that not everyone is going to like Ashes.
People are coming to Ashes thinking this is some sort of care bear picnic. Ignoring all the times Steven has said "Risk Vs Reward". The very concept of "Risk Vs Reward" being a design philosophy for Ashes is a guarantee that Ashes is not for everyone.
I think the Risk v Reward folk are thinking that means that casuals and solo players will not want to play Ashes, even though Steven (and Jeffrey) have said those playstyles are also supported.
Every playstyle will find that they will have to compromise in ways that they would prefer not to, but that is what happens when there are so many different playstyles on the same server.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Dygz and Noaani are so epic. I thought they blocked each other, no idea how they're even talking. Shits epic man
I read what Noaani wrote in Vhayene's quote.
I didn't see a source, so I have no clue what the actual context of his quote is.
If I didn't block Noaani, we would have about 5 pages in every thread of just the two of us going back and forth.
Regarding what's in the HazardNumberSeven quote:
I notice that's what Noaani states, but that's not what Steven and Jeffrey say in the video Vhayene posted.
Post the dev quote so we can all see the context instead of just relying on Noaani's (mis)interpretation.
Also, target audience may be different than what the players like at launch.
New World is a prime example of that.
(Isn't Noanni still trying to convince Steven to change the game design to allow DPS meters/advanced combat trackers? I'm not the one hoping the devs will change their game design.)
I think the Risk v Reward folk are thinking that means that casuals and solo players will not want to play Ashes, even though Steven (and Jeffrey) have said those playstyles are also supported.
Every playstyle will find that they will have to compromise in ways that they would prefer not to, but that is what happens when there are so many different playstyles on the same server.
No.
As one of those "Risk Vs Reward folk" I can tell you we are not worried about a few people choosing to play the game in unique ways. That is reasonable.
What we are worried about is a large amount of care bears flooding the servers only to find out that the game ain't the picnic they were looking for. Then, leaving the servers in ruins while Intrepid and the actual target audience pick up the pieces.
The fact that you use terms like: "Risk Vs Reward folk" in a way that is not self inclusive makes me worry that you might not be in the target audience.
I read what Noaani wrote in Vhayene's quote.
I didn't see a source, so I have no clue what the actual context of his quote is.
If I didn't block Noaani, we would have about 5 pages in every thread of just the two of us going back and forth.
Should, just quote Noaani from here on out, then? XD
As one of those "Risk Vs Reward folk" I can tell you we are not worried about a few people choosing to play the game in unique ways. That is reasonable.
What we are worried about is a large amount of care bears flooding the servers only to find out that the game ain't the picnic they were looking for. Then, leaving the servers in ruins while Intrepid and the actual target audience pick up the pieces.
The fact that you use terms like: "Risk Vs Reward folk" in a way that is not self inclusive makes me worry that you might not be in the target audience.
LMAO.
Ashes is PvX; not PvP-centric.
A carebear is someone who prefers not to kill to increase their Adventurer levels.
That doesn't say anything about how they feel about Risk v Reward.
I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that Ashes will be a carebear picnic.
If Corruption works as the devs expect it to, carebears should be fine playing Ashes.
You state that you are one of the "Risk v Reward folk".
And my point is that the "Risk v Reward folk" - the fans who toss around the term Risk v Reward - seem to think that Risk v Reward is all about PvP combat that carebears won't want to mess with.
And that out of all the things Steven talks about, Risk v Reward/PvP combat is going to be such that PvPers will love it and carebears will hate it.
I tend not to think in terms of Risk v Reward... especially not the way the "Risk v Reward folk" do.
There's a plethora of other hooks that entice me to play Ashes.
I dunno what you mean by "a few people" or playing the game in "unique" ways.
Lots of people will be playing Ashes in all the ways Steven and Jeffrey describe in the video you posted:
If you want to be a Crafter and you are really into crafting goods for other people and selling them on the market place, you can do that. You don't have to participate in any of the other systems if you don't want to. There's a role for almost every style of player.
--- Jeffrey
With Ashes of Creation, we've diversified the progression paths so there are many different ways forward. You don't just have to commit to an Adventuring class. You can have the advancement in the Artisan tree, that's about gathering, processing and crafting. You can build a Freehold with many different agencies of infrastructure in order to process those goods. You can advance in the economy, being able to take stock in Guilds and see their performance on a world boss level or in dungeons. You can become a citizen and build out the cities, advancing in the Religious system, advancing in the societies like the Thieve's Guild or Scholar's Academy. You can actually rise through the ranks of city government and dictate which buildings get built in theses nodes, which offer unique services to the players. It's really all about giving players the ability to focus on what direction interests them the most and making sure that direction always contributes in some way to the development of the world.
--- Steven
You focus on "Risk v Reward", but the way Steven and Jeffrey talk about that: "Everyone is your friend... until they're not."
--- Steven
One of our primary Pillars is that Player Choice Matters.
And the only way to make things matter, to make decisions matter, is to actually have consequences.
So, all of our systems are built with consequences in mind. Questing changes the world. Raiding changes the world. Sieging other cities, taking Castles... all these things change the whole world.
--- Jeffrey
We wanted to bring back to this amazing genre that means so much to us, Risk v Reward.
Accomplishment. Dedication. Commitment. Things that really make it a rewarding experience for you.
And then in addition to that, MMORPGs are all about that massively multiplayer online experience... interconnected community, right?
So all of our systems are built around the ability for players to connect with one another. To determine that everyone's your friend...until they're not."
--- Steven
Carebears will probably be up for all of the above.
Even Sieges - Ashes Sieges are fun.
Those who don't want to participate in Sieges can choose not to play during the time of the Siege - or plan to be somewhere else in the world where there is not a siege.
But, the way Steven and Jeffrey talk about Risk v Reward really has little to do with carebears.
Risk v Reward/PvP combat folk tend to primarily think that the PvP combat will be the most awesome feature of Ashes.
So, again... the target audience is everyone.
Sure, if Corruption does not work as well as the devs hope it works...carebears won't play.
People who don't love hardcore PvP combat probably won't play.
"A fishing net can only catch so many kinds of fish"- Me.
Just because the fishing net is woven to "catch" any fish does not allow it to "keep" them. The net might have too big of holes so tiny fish slip through. The net might be too flimsy in its creation so tears form and more fish get away. The net could catch a ton of fish and break completely under the weight.
The best thing you can do is focus in on what kind of net you wish to make, and for what kind of fish you wish to catch.
"A fishing net can only catch so many kinds of fish"- Me.
Just because the fishing net is woven to "catch" any fish does not allow it to "keep" them. The net might have too big of holes so tiny fish slip through. The net might be too flimsy in its creation so tears form and more fish get away. The net could catch a ton of fish and break completely under the weight.
I like this because it makes me think carebears are like tiny fish...
It's really all about giving players the ability to focus on what direction interests them the most and making sure that direction always contributes in some way to the development of the world.
...
One of our primary Pillars is that Player Choice Matters.
...
So all of our systems are built around the ability for players to connect with one another.
...
So, again... the target audience is everyone.
So, the game is PvX. This means anyone wanting a full PvP game won't find a home in Ashes, and anyone wanting a full PvE game won't find a home in Ashes.
Players that are not interested in hacing their decisions matter, or in any risk in the game - which is a lot of players that play MMO's to chill after work - won't accept those aspects of the game.
Players that have no intention of connecting with others will not want to play Ashes.
So, just using the information you went out and searched for in order to attempt to "prove" that this game is for everyone, we have identified entire groups of MMO players that this game is absolutely not for.
But sure, the target audience is everyone.
Just ignore the fact that Steven has not only said that the game is not for everyone, but has also responded to questions that started with "you have said that his game is not for everyone..."
I think the Risk v Reward folk are thinking that means that casuals and solo players will not want to play Ashes, even though Steven (and Jeffrey) have said those playstyles are also supported.
Without risk vs reward there would not even be a game. So I suspect some special type of risk vs reward is meant that is not part of every game. Mainly involving the type of risk. I have not watched everything Steven ever said about this topic, but does any one know what according to Steven makes AoC stand out from the average mmo? It is not clear to me. Partial loss of loot on being defeated by another player. Anything else?
O wait, loosing your home, comes to mind. That is special. Anything else?
Comments
The TL:DR of this video is that Ashes is for everyone.
Who does Steven say is not in their target audience?
To be fair, you have to believe they are targeting the game at everyone, as you would be right at the top of the list of people this game is not aimed at.
If you don't want to group, if you don't want to have PvP mixed in with your PvE, if you are unwilling to PvE in order to PvP, then this game is straight up not for you.
If you want to raid as per any other MMO ever released, if you want to focus on ladder based PvP, if you want a theme park style content delivery, this game is not for you.
To suggest that they are aiming this game at all MMO players is ludicrous, even for you, Dygz.
This is part of the reason why I have been calling for Intrepid to be more explicit about their target audience. We get a firm "Ashes is not going to be for everyone" one day and a round about "Ashes is for everyone" another day.
This sort of reckless public relations will lead to overhype and massive player population spikes, followed by disappointment and failure.
I tend to believe Steven when he firmly says:"Ashes is not going to be for everyone" to the MMORPG Subreddit and on other streams because if you look at the systems in the game you will clearly see that not everyone is going to like Ashes.
People are coming to Ashes thinking this is some sort of care bear picnic. Ignoring all the times Steven has said "Risk Vs Reward". The very concept of "Risk Vs Reward" being a design philosophy for Ashes is a guarantee that Ashes is not for everyone.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
At first if the target audience mattered, but after a few months that would stop mattering.
When you have a good product, your target audience does not matter, rather those that reach you are out of curiosity, popularity, etc.
Thinks that rather the main factor is to mold the product in such a way that in the future (after a few months of the realization) it is in tune with the different niches or in this case continue with the main idea until it is improved for such. point that its quality draws the attention of different audiences.
You hit the nail on the head. Anyone should be welcomed to try Ashes or look into it and see if it is for them or not. No one should be questioning that.
Not everyone is going to enjoy what Ashes is as a game. Jahlons video is actually perfect at explaining the things that will push people away from Ashes. The only place I disagree with Jahlon is the extent to how Ashes should change to expand to a larger audience and the long-term viability of Ashes as a niche game.
I don't know that Intrepid has any viable migration strategies. You can't just merge servers when things like castles and nodes are involved. Which is why the population spike is such a huge worry for me. Maybe something like a really long multi month public beta before launch. To really show the world what the game is going to be. Give people a chance to fully understand what Ashes is before everyone floods the game on launch day.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Uhm…no. Not only is this wrong, it’s a completely indefensible assertion. 😉
If you do not want a dog, or do not want a chihuahua, my product - potentially the highest quality dog collar on the planet - is straight up not for you.
WOW SD 2019 December, the highest peak of WOW and MMMO retail games in the last 10 years.
They did not get that for having the best content or the best graphics, or the best attention, they got it simply and simply because of their marketing, which thanks to the fact that they were (supposedly XD) the best should only attract the attention of a public sector for others to follow.
They had marketing aimed at the general MMO genre along with a product that was inoffensive to the bulk of those players.
That same marketing simply will not work with a game with open PvP, let alone other aspects of Ashes.
-If AoC gets an audience outside of their target, should they work to find a way to keep them or should they continue and improve things that led them to come?
One good thing is that the upcoming Alphas and Betas are probably going to be far more savage pvp wise than actual launch, because it's just alpha or beta, no one cares. So that might make it more obvious to people the type of game it is.
I'm thinking just keeping the servers very tight. Not spinning up a ton of new servers in the initial rush. Realizing that it might work out, the game might be that wildly successful, but that if it doesn't you're looking at an absolute disaster if you push out a ton of servers to match initial demand.
No idea, so many variables. I'm not a dev. That's for them to figure out.
Yeah, the NDA lift has helped. I was not thinking about that. People seeing the game with no NDA over the next few years should really help.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
It will help, but not as much as clear messaging.
You understand that marketing is entirely focused on product positioning to targeted consumer segments, right? 🤨
This post is a good post.
I've never blocked anyone, if I don't want to read someone's posts, I simply don't read them. Seems easier to me.
However, I do enjoy being blocked by Dygz. It means I can respond to his inanity without needing to be bothered by further inanity in response.
Every playstyle will find that they will have to compromise in ways that they would prefer not to, but that is what happens when there are so many different playstyles on the same server.
I didn't see a source, so I have no clue what the actual context of his quote is.
If I didn't block Noaani, we would have about 5 pages in every thread of just the two of us going back and forth.
Regarding what's in the HazardNumberSeven quote:
I notice that's what Noaani states, but that's not what Steven and Jeffrey say in the video Vhayene posted.
Post the dev quote so we can all see the context instead of just relying on Noaani's (mis)interpretation.
Also, target audience may be different than what the players like at launch.
New World is a prime example of that.
(Isn't Noanni still trying to convince Steven to change the game design to allow DPS meters/advanced combat trackers? I'm not the one hoping the devs will change their game design.)
No.
As one of those "Risk Vs Reward folk" I can tell you we are not worried about a few people choosing to play the game in unique ways. That is reasonable.
What we are worried about is a large amount of care bears flooding the servers only to find out that the game ain't the picnic they were looking for. Then, leaving the servers in ruins while Intrepid and the actual target audience pick up the pieces.
The fact that you use terms like: "Risk Vs Reward folk" in a way that is not self inclusive makes me worry that you might not be in the target audience.
Should, just quote Noaani from here on out, then? XD
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Oh neat I didn't know inanity was a word until today. I thought you were miss spelling insanity. lol
Holy crap! My dumb, smooth brain just read "insanity" anyway. I knew the word, I just never expect anyone to actually use it.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Ashes is PvX; not PvP-centric.
A carebear is someone who prefers not to kill to increase their Adventurer levels.
That doesn't say anything about how they feel about Risk v Reward.
I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that Ashes will be a carebear picnic.
If Corruption works as the devs expect it to, carebears should be fine playing Ashes.
You state that you are one of the "Risk v Reward folk".
And my point is that the "Risk v Reward folk" - the fans who toss around the term Risk v Reward - seem to think that Risk v Reward is all about PvP combat that carebears won't want to mess with.
And that out of all the things Steven talks about, Risk v Reward/PvP combat is going to be such that PvPers will love it and carebears will hate it.
I tend not to think in terms of Risk v Reward... especially not the way the "Risk v Reward folk" do.
There's a plethora of other hooks that entice me to play Ashes.
I dunno what you mean by "a few people" or playing the game in "unique" ways.
Lots of people will be playing Ashes in all the ways Steven and Jeffrey describe in the video you posted:
If you want to be a Crafter and you are really into crafting goods for other people and selling them on the market place, you can do that. You don't have to participate in any of the other systems if you don't want to. There's a role for almost every style of player.
--- Jeffrey
With Ashes of Creation, we've diversified the progression paths so there are many different ways forward. You don't just have to commit to an Adventuring class. You can have the advancement in the Artisan tree, that's about gathering, processing and crafting. You can build a Freehold with many different agencies of infrastructure in order to process those goods. You can advance in the economy, being able to take stock in Guilds and see their performance on a world boss level or in dungeons. You can become a citizen and build out the cities, advancing in the Religious system, advancing in the societies like the Thieve's Guild or Scholar's Academy. You can actually rise through the ranks of city government and dictate which buildings get built in theses nodes, which offer unique services to the players. It's really all about giving players the ability to focus on what direction interests them the most and making sure that direction always contributes in some way to the development of the world.
--- Steven
You focus on "Risk v Reward", but the way Steven and Jeffrey talk about that:
"Everyone is your friend... until they're not."
--- Steven
One of our primary Pillars is that Player Choice Matters.
And the only way to make things matter, to make decisions matter, is to actually have consequences.
So, all of our systems are built with consequences in mind. Questing changes the world. Raiding changes the world. Sieging other cities, taking Castles... all these things change the whole world.
--- Jeffrey
We wanted to bring back to this amazing genre that means so much to us, Risk v Reward.
Accomplishment. Dedication. Commitment. Things that really make it a rewarding experience for you.
And then in addition to that, MMORPGs are all about that massively multiplayer online experience... interconnected community, right?
So all of our systems are built around the ability for players to connect with one another. To determine that everyone's your friend...until they're not."
--- Steven
Carebears will probably be up for all of the above.
Even Sieges - Ashes Sieges are fun.
Those who don't want to participate in Sieges can choose not to play during the time of the Siege - or plan to be somewhere else in the world where there is not a siege.
But, the way Steven and Jeffrey talk about Risk v Reward really has little to do with carebears.
Risk v Reward/PvP combat folk tend to primarily think that the PvP combat will be the most awesome feature of Ashes.
So, again... the target audience is everyone.
Sure, if Corruption does not work as well as the devs hope it works...carebears won't play.
People who don't love hardcore PvP combat probably won't play.
Never change.
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Just because the fishing net is woven to "catch" any fish does not allow it to "keep" them. The net might have too big of holes so tiny fish slip through. The net might be too flimsy in its creation so tears form and more fish get away. The net could catch a ton of fish and break completely under the weight.
The best thing you can do is focus in on what kind of net you wish to make, and for what kind of fish you wish to catch.
I like this because it makes me think carebears are like tiny fish...
If I had more time, I would write a shorter post.
Players that are not interested in hacing their decisions matter, or in any risk in the game - which is a lot of players that play MMO's to chill after work - won't accept those aspects of the game.
Players that have no intention of connecting with others will not want to play Ashes.
So, just using the information you went out and searched for in order to attempt to "prove" that this game is for everyone, we have identified entire groups of MMO players that this game is absolutely not for.
But sure, the target audience is everyone.
Just ignore the fact that Steven has not only said that the game is not for everyone, but has also responded to questions that started with "you have said that his game is not for everyone..."
Without risk vs reward there would not even be a game. So I suspect some special type of risk vs reward is meant that is not part of every game. Mainly involving the type of risk. I have not watched everything Steven ever said about this topic, but does any one know what according to Steven makes AoC stand out from the average mmo? It is not clear to me. Partial loss of loot on being defeated by another player. Anything else?
O wait, loosing your home, comes to mind. That is special. Anything else?
Stupid question of me. Sorry.