Do you think you are a part of the "Target Audience"? Why or Why not?

I was going to ask this in the related thread, but I feel this question is specific enough to need a separate thread.

I'll start:

I think I am a part of the target audience. Here is why.

I value the emergent storytelling that comes from a persistent open world competitive environment as the apex of modern gaming. Games like Eve, Darkfall Online, Lineage 2, and Mortal Online have been among my favorite examples. Games where the world is not an instanced theme park, but a theater of war for real-world people to not have to role-play, but to actually be a part of a real war. To me, the drama and betrayal that comes from these environments is better than any book I can read or movie I can watch.

This is what Ashes is trying to do with the node and corruption systems. The node system turns the traditional MMORPG world into a living, breathing theater of war. No longer will zones, be static areas for developers to tell their stories, but instead they will be dynamic areas for players to live their stories.

What also appeals to me about Ashes is that, unlike the four games listed above. Ashes has what those games have, and the features of a modern MMORPG. Mounts, cosmetics, housing, and good graphics. I have always said that I love Sci-fi, but if there was a fantasy game that was like EVE with modern third-person combat. That would be the game for me. Ashes is not exactly that, but it is a close enough cousin to get me excited and accept some of the things I feel are flaws.

If you think I am not a part of the "Target Audience", based on anything I have just said. I invite you to tell me why as well.

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Okeydoke

Just watched the vod, I don't even know what tattoo based respec means. No idea what that's even talking about, gonna have to re listen to it. And I of course agree with Steven's thoughts about guild corruption.

But I know the split body leaning Steven said they have right now is probably a disappointment for you Azherae. It sucks that we aren't all going to be pleased with certain things. There are certain things I'm not pleased with and there will probably be more as systems get fleshed out and tweaked. But I know combat is a big one, not just some small thing.

He said that's the way they're "leaning" so technically anything's possible still. But who knows how free movement combat would ultimately turn out (if that's what's chosen), you might end up liking it in some kind of way, or maybe the way it feels on a certain class. I dunno, grasping at straws here. Just sucks. It'd suck for me if it didn't go my way, sucks for you if it doesn't go your way. So it just sucks either way in a sense.

George_Black

The tattoo system was also in L2. It didnt change the appearance of your character or anything like that.

Early in L2 I wanted my Gladiator class to be more tanky, so that I have a chance to survive ganger attacks and deal back some of my big dmg.

So I would often gather materials to make a -4 DEX +4 CON tattoo.

My character would lose 4 dex and gain 4 con.

If I wanted to focus on pve I would do two -4 CON +4 STR. It was a fairly costly process on higher lvs.

Noaani

So, this thread had me trying to figure out what it is that I find "off" about Ashes.

Obviously, I want solid raid content on top of an actual good game - but as the MMO I have spent the second most amount of time in had no raid content to speak of this isn't specifically a deal-breaker. This is not what is putting me off the game, even if it is not attracting me to it.

What I find off about this game is the disconnect between the initial premise of the game, and the current state of the game.

Ignoring any actual specific details about the game, just look at what it was being pushed ass. Ashes was supposed to be innovative and new, and to attempt to drive the direction of MMO's in general. This was the original kind of language Steven was using back in the day.

One need look no further than the opening paragraph of the kickstarter page for the game to get a real feel for what Intrerpid wanted for the game (emphasis my own)

Ashes of Creation is an open-world, non-faction based, no P2W, high-fantasy MMORPG. Join us as we change the face of the genre.

The problem is, as the development of the game has gone on, there has been less and less innovation, with more and more regression in to what other games have done.

This is a sign of Intrepid not being willing to take risks at all (amusing, considering Stevens take on risk vs reward). The more risk averse you are in your decision making, the more conservative the decisions you make will be.

Not only does this not push the genre forward with new innovation, but it can actually see that genre regress by bringing back long dead features from 18 year old MMO's.

I honestly can't think of the last thing I saw from Intrepid that made me think "hey, that's innovative".

I can kind of understand this though, as the key thing that is required for innovation to be realized in any company is for there to be an understanding that failure is indeed an option. It is when you remove failure as an option that you force those conservative decisions to be made - the same decisions that stifle innovation.

That, to me, is what I see ass being wrong with this game. It is not the innovation that it tried to claim it was going to be.

Vhaeyne

Noaani wrote: »

Not only does this not push the genre forward with new innovation, but it can actually see that genre regress by bringing back long dead features from 18 year old MMO's.

Ashes is mostly like Lineage 2 with modern combat and the node system. To me, the node system is the major innovation and the rest is catching an old MMORPGs systems up with modern times. Not the most innovative thing they could do, but innovative enough considering that every game is praised for being a WOW clone.

I don't see this as regression because when the Lineage 2 guys moved on to make ArcheAge they went in the direction South Korea was going with MMORPGs(p2w). Steven is taking the good concepts from L2 in the direction North America, went with MMORPGs while retaining the good stuff from ArcheAge.

This makes sense because Steven is always talking about L2 and ArcheAge. I would have been a ArcheAge fanboy if it was not for the dumb factions and p2w nonsense. I think that you might actually like Ashes if you liked ArcheAge.

The good news is once again the dev update gave me hope for the game. If we did not get these updates every month, I think I would have no hope for Ashes. I have heard you say you don't really watch them, I think?
If so, you should really give at least the Q&A your time.

Vhaeyne

George Black wrote: »

The tattoo system was also in L2. It didnt change the appearance of your character or anything like that.

Early in L2 I wanted my Gladiator class to be more tanky, so that I have a chance to survive ganger attacks and deal back some of my big dmg.

So I would often gather materials to make a -4 DEX +4 CON tattoo.

My character would lose 4 dex and gain 4 con.

If I wanted to focus on pve I would do two -4 CON +4 STR. It was a fairly costly process on higher lvs.

Can confirm.

In L2 it was just another way to customize your character to meet your needs.

Even if they were graphical, I would expect them to be able to be hidden.

Okeydoke

I still don't get it lol. Like mobile respecs basically? Mobile stat augments you can apply to change how you wanna play in that moment?

akabear

Love the mechanics that have come from other games.. have to say that the recent play of NW, for a non-craft / gatherer player in past.. their system totally hooked me and found it such a great integral part that every venture outside town with other objectives ended up repeatedly reverting to more gathering and later more crafting. The landscape and sounds were just great.. if they can replicate even 50% of that I would be all over it and hang up the bow!

L2 has aged, and I cannot stomach the graphics and the grind nowadays.. but it WAS great and suited me in its time..

As foir AoC, I don`t see much if anything that is groundbreaking.

What I do believe however and is its saving grace, is that multiple great ideas, systems and mechanics are being collated and compiled, with amplification and refinement combining great elements from multiple great games of present, past and distant past which theoretically should give AoC a solid start.

But it is the mix of other game ingredients where the grand recipe will become palatable or not to wide and sustained audience.

Just the fact that game has a number of elements that are a direct result of community actions also takes it from theme park to sandbox. Sandbox in a sense that it is the players that thereby provide the content.

akabear

Okeydoke wrote: »

I still don't get it lol. Like mobile respecs basically? Mobile stat augments you can apply to change how you wanna play in that moment?

Yep sounds like it, but task / craft / quest and/or grind based to create and change.. rather than just coin.. if like L2

George_Black

Okeydoke wrote: »

I still don't get it lol. Like mobile respecs basically? Mobile stat augments you can apply to change how you wanna play in that moment?

I did mention it was costly.
Dont be confused.
It's an item you slot on your equipment tap and it affects your characters main stats.

Lose 4 dex gain 4 con. Simple as that

Noaani

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I think that you might actually like Ashes if you liked ArcheAge.

This, combined with the fact that no one is trying to make a truly innovative MMO, or trying to remake any of the more popular MMO's from L2's time (popular in the West, at least), is why I am still here.

Dygz

Really only appealing to me if we can actually see the tattoos on our toons, but...
If we can see inventory items on our belts and backpacks, it should be feasible to see the tattoos.
Nikua, Py'Rai, Ren'Kai and Tulnar I would think might have stat tattoos as part of their cultures.

Okeydoke

George Black wrote: »

Okeydoke wrote: »

I still don't get it lol. Like mobile respecs basically? Mobile stat augments you can apply to change how you wanna play in that moment?

I did mention it was costly.
Dont be confused.
It's an item you slot on your equipment tap and it affects your characters main stats.

Lose 4 dex gain 4 con. Simple as that

Ahh ok I gotcha. I had just never heard of it before, I never played Lineage 2.

bigepeen

Noaani wrote: »

The problem is, as the development of the game has gone on, there has been less and less innovation, with more and more regression in to what other games have done.

Yeah, I get this feeling as well. I hope Steven stays true to his original vision for the game. I do think it's possible for people to convince him otherwise, and that he needs to make the game more similar to the current popular MMOs in order to make the game popular and not fail. People make that argument all the time. I don't think they are correct though. So many people are interested in the game (even before alpha) solely because the game systems that were described are way more appealing than the current MMO options.

They have recently been working on getting the basics done, such as the backend and networking, so a lot of those innovations are not visible to the typical player. I think combat is the only outward-facing game system that is in heavy development right now where we could see some innovation. I think we will get a sense for how much innovation they can come up with in the genre when they start focusing on stuff like the artisan system, dungeons, and naval systems, and just PvX related systems in general.

Noaani

bigepeen wrote: »

he needs to make the game more similar to the current popular MMOs in order to make the game popular and not fail.

If this is Intrepids thinking, the game will have no innovation.

Innovation requires risk of failure.

Okeydoke

Competition breeds innovation. The mmo market is weak and has been miserably weak for years. Plagued with p2w, the same gameplay loops as the one that came right before it, terrible social mechanics that make them more like lobby games, dead, boring worlds. The genre has gone backwards in quality, like the wrong way.

So to compete you don't even have to do anything innovative. Just go back to the ancient art of making good games.

I think Ashes is innovating though with the node system and the changing content in the world. That's about it. Maybe a couple other small things. But that alone is huge. It's going to create gameplay and gameplay loops that haven't really been seen before in mmos.

Noaani

Okeydoke wrote: »

the same gameplay loops as the one that came right before it

This is, imo, the issue.

Not having the same gameplay loop, but the idea that MMO's should be the only genre that doesnt have the same gameplay loop.

Pick basically any other genre of game, and look at the gameplay loop. Sporting games are about winning a game, and then winning another game, and winning another game. No one buys the latest NBA title complaining that it's all basketball.

Or racing games. Get a car and a track, and go faster around it than anyone else. Then do that again, and again. No one buys Forza and complains that it's all driving.

No one complains that Doom is all about shooting implausible enemies.

No one complains that Flight Simulator is all about flying.

No one complains that Mortal Kombat is just about fighting.

Go as far down that rabbit hole as you like, no one complains about the core gameplay loop being present in any other genre.

The gameplay loop for MMO's should be to arrive at a new encounter, work on that encounter, kill that encounter and then move on to the next encounter. This applies on a solo, group or raid level.

This is what made MMO's great back in the day. The problem isnt the fact that it is the same gameplay loop over and over, it is that developers have tried to diversify that gameplay loop and in the process completely forgotten what the core gameplay loop of MMO's is supposed to be - at least from a PvE perspective (the core gameplay loop of PvP MMO's is still somewhat under-defined, which may be why I find most of them to be lacking direction).

There is absolutely no problem with the core gameplay loop in an MMO being repeated over and over again. The problems are when developers start thinking daily quests or some other such nonsense is the core gameplay loop.
Rather than complaining about gameplay loops in MMO's, us players should be demanding that developers bring them back to what they should be.

Nerror

Innovative doesn't mean revolutionary or completely game changing. WoW was innovative back in the day by "stealing" all kinds of ideas and systems from existing games and polishing the hell out of them in comparison.

The node system is the main innovative feature of Ashes, and it affects the entire game pretty much. If they succeed with their vision, they might even dethrone Eve Online as king of a lot of those player driven systems. That is huge and that is enough to change the face of the genre. Other MMOs will feel stale and boring if Ashes can pull off an actual player driven fantasy world that isn't just marketing buzzwords.

They are also trying something with combat, but I honestly see that as less innovative even if they succeed. At least in terms of impact.

Azherae

Okeydoke wrote: »

Just watched the vod, I don't even know what tattoo based respec means. No idea what that's even talking about, gonna have to re listen to it. And I of course agree with Steven's thoughts about guild corruption.

But I know the split body leaning Steven said they have right now is probably a disappointment for you Azherae. It sucks that we aren't all going to be pleased with certain things. There are certain things I'm not pleased with and there will probably be more as systems get fleshed out and tweaked. But I know combat is a big one, not just some small thing.

He said that's the way they're "leaning" so technically anything's possible still. But who knows how free movement combat would ultimately turn out (if that's what's chosen), you might end up liking it in some kind of way, or maybe the way it feels on a certain class. I dunno, grasping at straws here. Just sucks. It'd suck for me if it didn't go my way, sucks for you if it doesn't go your way. So it just sucks either way in a sense.

When Intrepid gives information, it builds up 'faith', something like when a politician talks. "Design Capital", let's say. When there's a 'gaffe' or a 'slip', some of that is spent or lost. It's a combination of 'trust' and 'the veil'. Affects different people differently and because it's subjective, it's possible for a listener to misinterpret a situation.

Steven 'spent all his design capital' for ME in a few words, during that stream.

I learned that the 'combo system issue' that I saw in the test is probably a real thing with a real problem, through a set of small hints.

I learned that they're still in the pitch phase for certain things despite making a decision based on a flawed test.

I learned that they're still in the modeling phase for Node positions/simulation to the point where 'developers are offering models written in Java and these are somehow impressing people'.

I learned that the reason we didn't see things above Village wasn't necessarily because they were 'working but not stable' but because they might not be working or properly simulated yet either.

I learned that the combat system which is basically rudimentary and doesn't currently address any of the things that would cause the game to have a balanced base in my opinion is 'good and we're going forward'.

I learned that the risk vs reward aspect isn't actually 100%, there are ways it doesn't apply and things it doesn't apply to, that can easily be manipulated, and I lost a lot of faith in why it's that way, which leads to a lot of change in the open-world interaction. Basically that 'those who step forward' take risks, those who 'pull at their heels' risk 'less than they risk by stepping forward'.

I expected some hint or announcement of what they're doing about Jeff Bard leaving, but I guess that will come later... maybe.

Steven 'spent all his capital' for me. It's not to say Intrepid can't build up more of it, but when you've been told a lot of things that 'could go either way', and someone suddenly presents you with multiple signs that it all means the opposite of what you believed, 'philosophically', it's easy to shift.

I had faith before. I only have cautious wariness now. But it is also true to say that I didn't think I was part of the target audience for this game before, except for the faith. Now that it's gone, I don't anymore.

Hopefully they continue to do as they always do, transparently show things, rebuild it, or don't. I like being able to know that they're still testing models for the NodeWorld simulation at this point. I just don't like the implication of it relative to the status of development and design.

Steven 'reframed the narrative' for me in little ways, as someone who has worked in similar levels of projects in a different industry, and a lot of things I saw but didn't speak on before, now have a decidedly different 'cast' to them.

But, absolutely nothing confirmable, as always, it's all speculation and bias. I just, as mentioned prior, never specifically thought I was part of the target audience, and I lost all of the 'stuff that was starting to make me believe that'.

Gizban

I think I am.

My first MMO was Asheron's Call and it was basically a sandbox game. There was no hand holding, the default classes were terrible and if you made one you would have to remake your character. Every bit of character creation was adjustable; you selected your starting attributes, starting skills such as Primary/Secondary skills. ES reminds me of AC with regards to character creation.

I played AC for years but I never reached max level. You leveled by killing mobs, not doing quests. Quests were found through hints that Town Crier's would give you after you gave them some pyreals.

Leveling was grinding Lugians or Drudges or Olthoi or Mosswarts. That was kind of boring to me, so I picked up loot at fort that adventures would leave behind (so they could grind more), take it back to town, sell the junk and trade with the better bits.

AOC is going to have multiple paths of advancement, and that appeals to me. As does the emphasis on community and working towards common goals.

Okeydoke

Noaani wrote: »

No one complains that Doom is all about shooting implausible enemies.

No one complains that Flight Simulator is all about flying.

No one complains that Mortal Kombat is just about fighting.

I get your point but those are much simpler games. There's only so much you can do with them. I don't think were going to see a caravan mechanic in the next NBA 2k22. Mmos can have more complex and diverse gameplay loops.

I've lost count of all the Eastern mmos that have come out in the last few years that are carbon copies of each other. And they're still coming out, somehow sucking people in.

But what attracts me to Ashes is all the different avenues of progression, the different gameplay loops. It's not Wow that has had the same gameplay loop for like 17 years. Quest, get pre bis, raid in instances/do afterthought pvp. New dlc - quest, get pre bis, raid in instances/do afterthought pvp.

In Ashes there's so many more options. One of those options will be "arrive at a new encounter, work on that encounter, kill that encounter and then move on to the next encounter." But I can also progress and acquire wealth by being a pirate, being a trader, being a caravan raider, being a bandit, being a master crafter and selling my stuff, potentially running an in game business like a tavern, being a fisherman like in Archeage.

I'm fine with dungeon raiding being a core gameplay loop, but I don't want it to be the only one or be forced to do it as the only real way to progress in the game. If I want to make my fortune and gear myself out competitively compared to everyone else, I'd like the option to spend my days out on the sea mostly, fishing or stealing other peoples fish. Or traveling the land as a trader, or stealing from those traders. And when I get tired of that maybe I go do some dungeons, or maybe I get a guild together of really good pvpers and we can build a reputation that allows us to merc ourselves out for money.

So many options and gameplay loops, I could go on and on.

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